--- Log opened Tue Aug 02 00:00:19 2011
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00:24 <@adg> gmilleramilar: one month :)
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01:08 < brandini> and home
01:08 < brandini> building the new release
01:10 < brandini> I've never been so excited to learn a new programming
language
01:10 < brandini> about 11 years ago I tought myself how to write code
01:10 < brandini> perl, then java, then python and ruby
01:11 < brandini> but I feel like now I can actually learn Go the right way
01:11 < brandini> the others it was just learning to make it do what I
wanted
01:11 < brandini> </coding-therapy-session>
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01:19 < raylu> how does one send an http request with a custom user-agent in
the new release?  http.UserAgent was just a field previously but it's a method now
01:21 < str1ngs> raylu: use NewRequest then call the method
01:22 < str1ngs> iirc NewRequest is the helper function.  I tend to use my
own request helper
01:25 < raylu> "UserAgent returns the client's User-Agent, if sent in the
request."
01:26 < raylu> i suppose i could modify the header map
01:27 < str1ngs> right sorry so use the headers
01:28 < str1ngs> req.Header["user-agent"] = "mahAgent" or
req.Header.Set("user-agent", "mahAgent")
01:29 < str1ngs> something like that
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01:33 < raylu> yep.  that's pretty much what i wrote
01:33 < raylu> thanks :D
01:33 < raylu> now if only people would stop sniffing user-agents
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02:03 < brandini> I'm finding that writing web apps in go is harder than I
originally thought :)
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02:08 <@adg> brandini: really?  how so?
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02:11 < brandini> well right now I'm trying to figure out how to do
templating where I can pass in a context object that I can use in the html page
and draw stuff...  proving nontrivial for me
02:12 < uriel> adg: THANKS!
02:13 < uriel> adg: make sure to do the same for the -dev list
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02:25 < jessta> brandini: you can't "draw stuff" on a html page.  You can
only output text that will be interpreted by the web browser
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04:49 < kuroneko> Just thrown together Yet Another Generic Configuration
File Parser if anybody wants to have a prod at it.
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06:40 < kuroneko> hmm.  any hope of getting a way to fidget uid/gid across
an exec boundary implemented upstream?
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06:42 < kuroneko> oop!  nevermind.  Just found it.  :)
06:43 < kuroneko> funny how the bits I want I suddenly discover really did
get implemented ;)
06:43 < cbeck> Random question, but any ideas for a decently interesting
string manipulation problem that's easily paralellizable?
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07:03 < |Craig|> cbeck: data mining in log files
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09:14 < Maxdamantus> Not directly a question about Go, but, in case anyone's
familiar with its history ..  why doesn't Limbo have lexical closures?
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09:15 < aiju> because closures are lots of work?
09:15 < Maxdamantus> The related languages before (Newsqueak) and after (Go)
seem to have them ..  seems strange for the middle one to lack it.
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09:16 < Maxdamantus> It'd be easy if they'd taken it into account when
designing the VM it runs on, which I believe was designed for Limbo.
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09:36 < str1ngs> I think bash needs a builtin called YELL
09:36 < str1ngs> YELL "YOU SCREWED UP AGAIN!"
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09:54 < wrtp> Maxdamantus: limbo didn't even have function pointers until
recently
09:54 < Maxdamantus> Ah, hm.
09:54 < Maxdamantus> Well, they are represented funnily, imo.
09:54 < aiju> 11:36 < str1ngs> I think bash needs a builtin called
YELL
09:54 < aiju> if there is anything bash has enough of, it's builtins
09:55 < wrtp> Maxdamantus: closures are planned, i think, but i'll be
surprised if i see them actually implemented
09:55 < str1ngs> aiju: bultins are useful though
09:55 < wrtp> str1ngs: why?
09:55 < Maxdamantus> It involves a module pointer.
09:55 < wrtp> Maxdamantus: what do you mean by "represented funnily"?
09:55 < aiju> str1ngs: are you a DCL user, by chance?
09:55 < Maxdamantus> In the VM.
09:55 < str1ngs> aiju: DCL?
09:56 < aiju> Digital [Equipment Corp.] Command Language
09:56 < aiju> the shell for VMS
09:56 < aiju> it has MANY builtins
09:56 < Maxdamantus> When you use a function designator in value context, it
will invoke a `load` instruction.
09:56 < str1ngs> aiju: naw
09:56 < wrtp> Maxdamantus: that's necessary.  unless you do the Go thing of
dynamically generating code to point to the data
09:56 < Maxdamantus> (for "$self", in the case of local functions)
09:56 < wrtp> Maxdamantus: really?
09:56 < Maxdamantus> Yeah, pretty much.
09:56 < wrtp> Maxdamantus: i don't think so
09:57 < Maxdamantus> Yes, then it can be passed around still to other
functions.
09:57 < Maxdamantus> (in other modules)
09:57 < Maxdamantus> It does.
09:57 * Maxdamantus has been implementing the VM recently.
09:57 < str1ngs> builtins can be faster then forked calls, also there are
times ie when you are boot strapping you cant rely on utility.  ie gnu echo, time
vs builtin echo time
09:57 < wrtp> str1ngs: that's bogus reasoning
09:57 < str1ngs> also embedded
09:58 < wrtp> the shell should not implement echo or time
09:58 < str1ngs> so you rather fork a call for something trivially . doesnt
make sense
09:58 < wrtp> Maxdamantus: oh yes, i remember, creating fn pointers is a bit
awkward
09:59 < wrtp> str1ngs: the shell is all about calling external programs
09:59 < aiju> 11:57 < str1ngs> builtins can be faster then forked
calls, also there are times ie when you are boot strapping you cant rely on
utility.  ie gnu echo, time vs builtin echo time
09:59 < str1ngs> sure but you pay a price for it also
09:59 < wrtp> str1ngs: that's the whole point
09:59 < aiju> if you need fast echo
09:59 < aiju> what the fuck are you doing
09:59 < aiju> forks are cheap
09:59 < wrtp> aiju: would you *please* stop saying "fuck"
09:59 < str1ngs> so lets install coreutils even though I dont need it just
so I can echo?
10:00 < str1ngs> really where is the logic in that?  or do you assume all
systems have a full userland?
10:00 < wrtp> str1ngs: the rc shell works just fine without builtin time or
echo or...
10:00 < aiju> str1ngs: sorry, but this is ridiculous
10:00 < aiju> i assume all systems to have a minimal userland
10:01 < str1ngs> you assume to much then.
10:01 < wrtp> str1ngs: no
10:01 < aiju> sorry
10:01 < aiju> this is UNIX
10:01 < str1ngs> and how do you think people bootstrap said system?
10:01 < wrtp> str1ngs: the shell was originally never a full programming
language without needing external commands
10:01 < wrtp> str1ngs: you write in C
10:01 < aiju> str1ngs: bootstrap == booting up?
10:01 < str1ngs> think coretutils etc magically builds it's self?
10:01 < str1ngs> aiju: no
10:02 < wrtp> str1ngs: first thing is a C compiler
10:02 < aiju> as wrtp said, write in C
10:02 < str1ngs> wait so first you say shells are good for forked called
next you suggest write it in C instead?
10:02 < str1ngs> so C should be easier to fork calls with right?
10:02 < aiju> what the fuck
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10:03 < aiju> everyday use of the system and bootstrapping are different
things
10:03 < str1ngs> really tell that to initramfs
10:03 < aiju> wait
10:03 < str1ngs> same principle
10:03 < aiju> now you are talking about booting up
10:03 < wrtp> str1ngs: fork should be cheaper
10:03 < str1ngs> aiju: its the same principle
10:04 < aiju> first of all, the classical Unix way is to have the kernel
mount the root filesystem
10:04 < wrtp> anyway, you shouldn't be doing full on programming in the
shell
10:04 < str1ngs> lets install coreutils to initramfs just for echo..  yay!
10:04 < aiju> str1ngs: that's almost exactly what we're doing with 9front
10:04 < aiju> our initrd contains /bin/echo
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10:04 < wrtp> str1ngs: you can have echo without coreutils
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10:05 < str1ngs> yes but I assume with plan9 /bin/echo is one program
10:05 < aiju> it is
10:05 < aiju> coreutils is just a loose bunch of programs
10:05 < str1ngs> wrtp: yes its called a builtin
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10:05 < wrtp> str1ngs: no, it's called /bin/echo
10:05 < aiju> there are other implementations than coreutils
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10:05 < aiju> also, coreutils is really fucking bloated
10:05 < str1ngs> wrtp: which on linux is part of coreutils and is not
exactly small
10:06 < aiju> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 22236 2010-07-05 14:10 /bin/echo
10:06 < wrtp> Maxdamantus: the reason creating a local fn call in inferno
needs to call load is that the local module pointer is usually only available
implicitly
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10:06 < wrtp> Maxdamantus: and the fn pointer implementation was done
without adding instructions to Dis
10:07 < str1ngs> wrtp: when you use echo with bash you are using the
builtin.  $ type echo
10:07 < wrtp> str1ngs: i don't use bash
10:07 < Maxdamantus> I think the main reason is that it doesn't want to
expose things like program counters to other modules.
10:07 < Maxdamantus> You can't jmp into another module.
10:07 < wrtp> str1ngs: % whatis echo
10:07 < wrtp> %
10:07 < Maxdamantus> To get into another module you use mcall.
10:07 < wrtp> % whatis echo
10:07 < wrtp> /Users/rog/plan9/bin/echo
10:08 < str1ngs> man plan9 fan bois are annoying
10:08 < Maxdamantus> (function pointers should be usable across modules, of
course)
10:08 < str1ngs> did I once mention plan9 no.  I recall saying "bash"
10:09 < Maxdamantus> (load foo bar)->baz(func);
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10:09 < aiju> str1ngs: it doesn't fucking matter
10:10 < wrtp> s/fucking//, pretty please
10:11 < aiju> *sigh*
10:11 < moraes> i'm a bit confused.  i din't find a change note about
strings.Split/SplitN (sre2 uses SplitN and was updated this month).
10:11 < moraes> SplitN was dropped or is it new?
10:11 < wrtp> SplitN is not
10:11 < wrtp> s/not/new/
10:11 < moraes> dropped then?
10:12 < wrtp> no, it should be there
10:12 < moraes> hm, compier complained.  it is release.r58.1 8739
10:12 < moraes> *compiler
10:12 < wrtp> moraes: update to r59
10:12 < moraes> ok, thank you.
10:13 < str1ngs> wrtp: aiju I respect that you use plan9 . but I dont feel
the need to argue subtle unix styles all the time.
10:13 < wrtp> str1ngs: i don't currently use plan 9
10:13 < wrtp> str1ngs: (well, only in an emulator)
10:14 < aiju> "subtle unix styles"?
10:14 < aiju> it's the damn unix philosophy
10:14 < wrtp> str1ngs: rc works fine for me under mac os.  and it has very
few builtins
10:14 < wrtp> str1ngs: the point is to try to stop the insidious spread of
complexity into everything
10:14 < str1ngs> I might be more inclined to use rc vs bash, but bash is
more readily available
10:15 < aiju> str1ngs: i don't even get the relevance of that to the
discussion
10:15 < wrtp> str1ngs: the main innovation in unix, historically was the
separation of functionality into small parts, each part doing one thing well
10:15 < aiju> the thompson shell had two builtins iirc
10:15 < aiju> chdir and exit
10:15 < str1ngs> wrtp: I understand that, but when you goto distribute said
software, it does work so well.
10:16 < wrtp> str1ngs: by adding more builtins to the shell you're making
the shell into a "do everything" kind of utility
10:16 < wrtp> str1ngs: what?
10:16 < wrtp> str1ngs: i don't understand that last sentence
10:16 < aiju> ah no, only chdir and shift were builtin
10:17 < str1ngs> wrtp: when you goto package something for a user/system.
having a package for echo time etc is tedious
10:17 < wrtp> str1ngs: "goto package"?
10:18 < aiju> there is a package for sudo
10:18 < aiju> but then you can just make a coreutils package
10:18 < str1ngs> right but without coreutils then you lose a broad spectrum
of features.
10:19 < str1ngs> ie initramfs and bootstrapping
10:19 < moraes> oh r59 is 12 hours old.  :)
10:19 < wrtp> Maxdamantus: i think that limbo's modules are one its
strengths, but they're also a barrier to further progress.  the logical next step
is something like Go's interfaces, but that would require sweeping changes.
10:20 < wrtp> str1ngs: i don't understand your argument.  you seem to be
arguing a) that the shell should be usable without coreutils.  b) that you can't
bootstrap without coreutils
10:21 < str1ngs> wrtp: yes it should be usable without coreutils.  or else
how do you even build coreutils?
10:21 < aiju> str1ngs: there is no C compiler in the shell
10:21 < aiju> there is no cat(1) in the shell
10:21 < str1ngs> compilers do not run them selves thats just silly
10:21 < Maxdamantus> imo the VM is a bit limiting.
10:22 < str1ngs> aiju: you still require scripts etc
10:22 < Maxdamantus> mp and fp spaces should be typed.
10:22 < aiju> str1ngs: what?
10:22 < aiju> the shell doesn't built itself
10:22 < Maxdamantus> It would mean it could be implemented easily on
platforms with pointers wider than 32 bits.
10:23 < wrtp> str1ngs: you build coreutils on another system
10:23 < wrtp> or on the same system before rebooting
10:23 < Maxdamantus> (well, at least typed by the basic typing system
provided; where pointer offsets are specified)
10:23 < str1ngs> wrtp: thats not bootstrapping
10:23 < wrtp> Maxdamantus: they are typed
10:23 < wrtp> Maxdamantus: (statically)
10:23 < Maxdamantus> wrtp: hrm ..  I don't think so.
10:24 < Maxdamantus> You just call `frame` and start loading stuff in.
10:24 < aiju> str1ngs: what is your definition of bootstrapping?
10:24 < jessta> ls
10:24 < Maxdamantus> Actually, they might be ..  /me checks.
10:26 < Maxdamantus> Right, yeah.
10:26 * Maxdamantus ignored that because he's implementing it in JS and relying on
its already provided GC.
10:26 < aiju> Maxdamantus: you're implementing Dis in JS?
10:27 < Maxdamantus> Yes.
10:27 < aiju> heh, seems cool
10:27 < str1ngs> aiju: in these case, where a you build a system independent
of the current system.
10:27 < wrtp> Maxdamantus: the compiler knows what the types are
10:27 < aiju> str1ngs: how do you build the motherfucking shell to begin
with
10:27 < aiju> just build /bin/echo the same way
10:27 < wrtp> *sigh*
10:27 < Maxdamantus> Not entirely sure how much work it'd be to port enough
to run the actual OS.
10:27 < Maxdamantus> I think it wouldn't be *too* much.
10:28 < wrtp> lots of stuff in C too
10:29 < Maxdamantus> Yeah, that's the stuff that'd need to be
reimplemented/converted/something.
10:29 < str1ngs> aiju: its not the same thing.  LFS method is an example of
proper bootstrapping
10:31 < wrtp> LFS?
10:31 < aiju> linux from scratch
10:31 < aiju> it's like gentoo except manually
10:32 < aiju> and i don't get str1ngs' point at all
10:32 < Maxdamantus> It's what silly people use.
10:33 < str1ngs> aiju: my point is there are situations where having a
builtin is useful.  just because you never encounter that situation doesnt mean
its not useful
10:34 < wrtp> Maxdamantus: LFS is not an example of proper bootstrapping.
"The LFS system will be built by using an already installed Linux distribution
(such as Debian, Mandriva, Red Hat, or SUSE)."
10:34 < str1ngs> in terms of buitin's versus isolated binaries are really
dont care that much as to whats better.
10:34 < str1ngs> I really*
10:35 < str1ngs> wrtp: it is a proper example of proper bootstrapping
10:35 < str1ngs> done right the system never uses the hosted systemd at all
10:35 < aiju> hahahahahah
10:35 < aiju> systemd
10:35 < aiju> now it's getting really fun!
10:36 < str1ngs> actually that was just a typo
10:36 < wrtp> str1ngs: proper bootstrapping would involve writing the boot
code in machine code
10:36 < wrtp> str1ngs: then bootstrapping from there
10:36 < str1ngs> wrtp: huh?
10:37 < wrtp> LFS isn't bootstrapping from scratch because it involves an
existing linux distrubution, already bootstrapped
10:37 < str1ngs> thats stage one.  stage 2 doesnt touch the hosted system
10:38 < aiju> iirc when you do LFS you compile a shell and coreutils
10:38 < str1ngs> aiju: the finally shell is compiled from a self hosted
toolchain
10:38 < str1ngs> the smaller the self hosted toolchain is the better
10:39 < wrtp> str1ngs: sure, it demos one stage of bootstrapping
10:39 < str1ngs> ie aboriginal linux does it with busybox
10:39 < wrtp> but the first bit is the hardest
10:39 < wrtp> and at every stage you've got coreutils
10:39 < str1ngs> first bit is eays
10:39 < str1ngs> easy*
10:39 < aiju> str1ngs: cp and cat are not builtins
10:39 < aiju> still it works
10:39 < aiju> fucking magic
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11:06 < str1ngs> builtin yell "fucking magic" :P
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11:29 < uriel> aiju: got trolled again?
11:29 < uriel> :)
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11:52 < wrtp> uriel: talking to yourself again?  :-)
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11:55 < moraes> uriel, i'm learning the goes
11:55 < moraes> but now i have to go out
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12:06 < rael_wiki> hello
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12:32 < skelterjohn> hi
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12:51 < gnuvince> Is it possible to have gc generate warnings instead of
errors when variables or imports are unused?
12:57 < Namegduf> No.
12:57 < Namegduf> Add _ = <varable>
12:57 < Namegduf> Temporarily
13:00 < gnuvince> It'd be nice to have as a command line flag
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13:09 < str1ngs> gnuvince: it pretty much designed to be that way.  you will
get use to it.
13:09 < str1ngs> should be something iirc in the FAQ about it.
13:10 < gnuvince> str1ngs: it's just annoying when you want to comment out
something to debug some code and you need to disable declarations and imports as
well
13:12 < skelterjohn> the go compiler never issues a warning, as a matter of
principle
13:12 < str1ngs> gnuvince: Namegduf method works for this.
13:12 < skelterjohn> "if it's worth mentioning, it's worth fixing"
13:13 < str1ngs> or we end up with gcc's warnings that should be errors.
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13:47 < TheMue> re
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13:50 < knowmercy> morning
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13:57 < knowmercy> is it generally preferred to use short names for
variables in go or theLongCamelCaseVariablesThatAreDescriptive?
13:58 < jlaffaye> I want to say that it depends
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13:58 < jlaffaye> if you have a writer, everyone will understand 'w'
13:59 < knowmercy> I look at some sample code from various libraries and
things are named like w, k
13:59 < knowmercy> I have no clue what those are :)
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13:59 < jlaffaye> in which context?
13:59 < exch> knowmercy: this is how Rob Pike feels about it
http://www.chris-lott.org/resources/cstyle/pikestyle.html
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14:00 < TheMue> knowmercy: I can live with short names, as long as the
according function is short and clear.  The larger the scope the longer the name.
14:01 < knowmercy> type Ctx struct { H, W string
14:01 < jlaffaye> I tend to mix one letter variables and notSoShortNames
14:01 < exch> Same here
14:01 < aiju> long names make everything clearer
14:01 < aiju> for indexIntoArray=0; indexIntoArray < len(SaidArray);
indexIntoArray++ {
14:01 < aiju> so clear!
14:02 < jlaffaye> but for things like receiver, file handler, writer,
reader, one letter is just fine
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14:02 < exch> loop iterator vars will just be 'i' or 'j' or 'k'.  File
handles will be 'fd'.  Anything nonstandard will generally a somewhat more
descriptive name
14:02 < exch> *+have a
14:03 < aiju> i generally call files "f" in Go
14:03 < knowmercy> what about the struct I just pasted
14:03 < knowmercy> is that clear to anyone what that is
14:03 < aiju> knowmercy: no
14:03 < aiju> not without context
14:04 < mkb218> the struct IS a context
14:04 < aiju> hahaha
14:04 < jlaffaye> I just reallize that my long var names are mostly
variables used for flag.Parse()
14:04 < knowmercy> :)
14:04 < knowmercy> Go feels like C in some regards, I'm used to java
14:05 < knowmercy> so following along with example code takes me a minute
14:06 < aiju> just imagine that all the huge bloat and bureaucracy is gone
14:06 < knowmercy> :)
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14:07 < mkb218> i use long names for booleans when the behavior is not
obvious
14:08 < aiju> but don't forget, don't make names longer than six characters
14:08 < aiju> you're just going to confuse the linker
14:09 < mkb218> too bad i can't use a ! in a var name.  that would save me
two chars instead of "not"
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14:09 < aiju> hahaha
14:09 < aiju> mkb218: you can
14:09 < aiju> ! is perfectly fine
14:09 < mkb218> this!that
14:09 < aiju> aww sorry
14:09 < aiju> the Go compiler is more bitchy than I assumed
14:10 < xyproto> aiju: how did you find it that fast?
14:10 < xyproto> !
14:10 < aiju> the symbol?
14:10 < aiju> SCIM
14:10 < nicka1> bools that have names starting with not are confusing
14:10 < jlaffaye> I didnt play much with rpc yet, but is there a reason that
would prevent me from using rpc on both side on the same unix socket?
14:10 < xyproto> aiju: I see
14:11 < mkb218> i never start with not.  more like if the flag is used to
choose between two paths, i name it "ThisNotThat" or similar
14:11 < nicka1> right
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14:11 < xyproto> jlaffaye: if you have an rpc server on one socket and a
client that communicates it, it should work fine.  If you're having two rpc
servers on the same socket, I have dubts
14:12 < jlaffaye> btw, what I have in mind feels like bad design, if you
have a better idea..  :) I have a server which listen for rpc.  I want a sort of
callback system so the client would say to the server "oh and by the way I have a
rpc server where you can call me when you have the results"
14:13 < jlaffaye> if all my clients were go clients I could wait for the
response in a goroutine
14:13 < jlaffaye> but I dont want to block
14:13 < aiju> hahaha
14:13 < aiju> ! and ! look identical in Plan 9
14:14 < aiju> but the former is a valid identifier and the latter is not
14:14 < exch> :p
14:14 < aiju> damn, that's an awesome cat confusion technique
14:14 < exch> I need to squint hard to see the dfference in irssi
14:14 < aiju> i use irssi and it's obvious
14:14 < aiju> actually if it isn't obvious your font is broken
14:15 < exch> Well, my eyesight isn't what it should be
14:15 < aiju> my eyesight is bad to begin with
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14:15 < xyproto> jlaffaye: you can send a message over rpc from the client
to the server, telling about the other server, yes.  However, what about channels
over network?  Are you writing in Go?
14:15 < aiju> hahaha fun
14:15 < xyproto> jlaffaye: also, json-rpc could be worth looking into?
(depending on the intended use)
14:15 < aiju> # looks like #
14:16 * kuroneko reads back....
14:16 < mkb218> they would probably look more different without antialiasing
14:16 < mkb218> there are maybe two pixels difference
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14:17 < aiju> unicode is the best code obfuscation tool ever
14:17 < kuroneko> yeah, I'm not sold on this whole unicode business.  :P
14:18 < xyproto> #K′‚!
14:18 < kuroneko> just another way to confuse people with characters that
they can't type trivially on their keyboards.
14:18 < exch> '26 character latin alphabet should be enough for everyone.'
14:18 < kuroneko> :)
14:18 < kuroneko> although I do understand the appeal to CJK users
14:18 < str1ngs> exch: xft:DejaVu Sans Mono:size=30:antialias=true profit :P
14:19 < exch> :p
14:20 < str1ngs> what plan9 doesnt have a irc client ..  wtf?  :P
14:20 < aiju> it does
14:20 < aiju> several
14:20 < kuroneko> meh.  IRC is easy enough to just talk raw to anyway
14:20 < kuroneko> although I haven't done that for a few years now.  :)
14:20 < xyproto> plan9 has vim.  And there is an irc client for vim.
14:20 < jlaffaye> xyproto: my official client will be in Go but I want to be
open for clients in other languages
14:20 < str1ngs> builtin irc ? ..  ok pushing my luck now :P
14:21 < aiju> unicode is cool
14:21 < kuroneko> I believe there were some other irc clients too, some 9ish
ones
14:21 < xyproto> jlaffaye: then I would recommend json-rpc (or possibly even
xml-rpc, as it is supported by marginally more languages, but it is uglier),
depending on how quickly you need it to go
14:21 < aiju> 卐 ᛋᛋ …
14:21 < str1ngs> oh crap use use xml
14:21 < str1ngs> he used*
14:21 < aiju> XML?
14:22 < aiju> burn the witch
14:22 -!- shvntr [~shvntr@113.84.125.138] has quit [Read error: Connection reset
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14:22 * str1ngs unleashes uriel on xyproto
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14:22 < kuroneko> jlaffaye: google protocol buffers + sockets.  can't go
wrong.
14:22 < kuroneko> well, you can
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14:22 < kuroneko> but you're not likely to.  :)
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14:23 < xyproto> str1ngs: huh, me?  :D Is the mention enough to be burned as
a witch around here?
14:23 < aiju> XML-RPC is a joke
14:23 < kuroneko> if you want really really simple though, you can do what I
did and do a single JSON exchange per connection
14:23 < xyproto> aiju: but it's a cross-language, cross-platform widely
supported joke
14:23 < aiju> jesus christ
14:23 < aiju> what's so fucking hard about
14:24 < aiju> "function argument"
14:24 < aiju> in fucking plain text
14:24 < xyproto> aiju: do you mean "functiøn argumentᛋ"?
14:24 < aiju> hahaha
14:24 < str1ngs> xyproto: yes, dont even think about saying yaml :P
14:24 < xyproto> aiju: sneaky unicode may appear
14:25 < aiju> anyway, go ahead
14:25 < kuroneko> aiju: it's nice to have a uniform way to encode
non-trivial values
14:25 < aiju> wrap more layers of filth around anything
14:25 < kuroneko> reduces edge cases.
14:25 < xyproto> as long as the xml is not wrapped in xml before sending it,
like ibm did :P
14:26 < kuroneko> the real test is if you can safely nest the encoding.
14:26 < kuroneko> if you can do that, you're doing it right.
14:26 < mkb218> xml-rpc looks nice compared to soap though
14:26 < kuroneko> space as a delimiter fails there.
14:26 < kuroneko> unless you start escaping non-delimiter spaces
14:26 < aiju> put XML in JSON and transfer that with HTTP over SSH
14:26 < kuroneko> and then you might as well use json or something else.
14:27 < jlaffaye> xyproto: how json-rpc would help me with my callbacks?
14:27 < xyproto> json as xml:
http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/h0chx/need_more_enterprise_introducing_jsonx_an_ibm/
14:27 < jlaffaye> xyproto: my original idea was to listen with json-rpc on
both side
14:27 < aiju> enterprise software follows a variant of rule 34
14:27 < aiju> if you can think of some horrible software design, it has been
done
14:27 < xyproto> aiju: +1
14:28 < kuroneko> aiju: and somebody has written a paper promoting it.
14:28 < kuroneko> jlaffaye: I hate to say it, if you're doing a callback API
over RPC, you're solving the problem incorrectly.
14:28 < kuroneko> you probably want a continuous messaging protocol instead
14:29 < jlaffaye> kuroneko: Im open to suggestions:)
14:29 < xyproto> jlaffaye: json-rpc doesn't really help you.  It is a
relatively standard way of sending rpc messages, though, that is web-friendly.  Go
channels over network may work for you.  json-xml may work for you.  What is your
case?  Do you need speed?  Interoperability?  Web-friendlyness?
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14:30 < kuroneko> the reason I say this is you need a way to break the
'callback' associations if you lose connectivity
14:30 < kuroneko> and a traditional RPC won't give you that
14:30 < jlaffaye> xyproto: I dont care about web friendlyness.  It would
listen on unix domain socket
14:30 < xyproto> jlaffaye: then what kuroneko said
14:31 < xyproto> and why wouldn't you care about web friendlyness, in this
time and age?  :)
14:31 < aiju> UNIX domain sockets ..  let's take the "net" out of "network"
14:31 < kuroneko> hell, I do json messages on unix domain sockets >_>
it's simple to implement in Go, it's simple to implement in pretty much everything
else.
14:31 < kuroneko> aiju: sure, but they're STUPIDLY FAST.  :)
14:31 < aiju> there is this old UNIX thing
14:32 < aiju> a pipe
14:32 < kuroneko> pipes are single consumer.
14:32 < aiju> create two pipes, multitask
14:32 < aiju> haha
14:32 < kuroneko> pipes and unix domain sockets solve two very different
problems.
14:32 < kuroneko> unix domain sockets are closer to 9's srv multiplexes
14:33 < aiju> "srv multiplexes"?
14:33 < aiju> you can multiplex #s?
14:33 < kuroneko> you can establish multiplexed services in /srv via #s IIRC
14:33 < kuroneko> it's been a few years
14:33 < aiju> i don't know of it
14:34 < aiju> but maybe there is some hack
14:35 < jlaffaye> oh,and fuck them, I they dont want to block thats their
(the client) problem!
14:35 < jlaffaye> problem solved :p
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14:42 < kuroneko> jlaffaye: client blocking is the client's problem.  :)
14:42 < kuroneko> not the servers.
14:43 < kuroneko> all of my go socket code runs in at least 2 goroutines for
this reason.  :)
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14:43 < kuroneko> life is so much easier to deal with when all your IO
operations are synchronous
14:44 < kuroneko> and you can then bring everything together via channels
and select
14:44 < skelterjohn|work> i agree
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14:45 < moraes> skelterjohn,
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6899069/why-are-request-url-host-and-scheme-blank-in-the-development-server
14:45 < moraes> my yesterday's question got an answer
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14:49 < skelterjohn|work> cool
14:49 < skelterjohn|work> I don't know much about that kind of thing though
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15:22 < gnuvince> Are defers called when a program receives SIGINT?
15:22 < skelterjohn|work> unlikely
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15:42 < gnuvince> Can anyone help me understand the difference between 'go
f(func(x *interface{}) { g(x) })' and 'f(func(x *interface{}) { go g(x) })'?  When
I used the latter form, g would panic because x was nil.
15:43 < skelterjohn|work> in the 2nd version, the "go g(x)" can be delayed
arbitrarilty
15:43 < skelterjohn|work> for instance, to a point where x is nil
15:44 < skelterjohn|work> in the first version, it is in the same goroutine
as f(...), and if x doesn't become nil over the course of that function, it won't
be nil when g(x) is called
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15:45 < gnuvince> What's surprising is that I never set x to nil in my
code...
15:45 < gnuvince> I would've thought the second form would be correct
15:46 < gnuvince> Apparently not
15:46 < skelterjohn|work> can you post a larger context?
15:46 < gnuvince> I think I can
15:46 < gnuvince> Hang on
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15:52 < gnuvince> skelterjohn|work: http://www.ideone.com/R2ngJ
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15:55 < skelterjohn|work> looking
15:57 < skelterjohn|work> i don't see bot defined anywhere (so you must have
other code).  perhaps it's bot that is getting set to nil, rather than dbConn?
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16:13 < gnuvince> skelterjohn|work: I put in some fmt.Printf; it's really
the SQLite connection that's nil.
16:14 < gnuvince> From a log statement: 2011/08/02 12:13:18 nil sqlite
database
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16:16 < kevlar_work> I didn't know or had forgotten that you could define
types locally in a function, just like var and const.  Neat :)
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17:31 < knowmercy> *YAWN* what a quiet day
17:31 < knowmercy> I couldn't even get the folks on the openindiana mailing
list fired up with my anti-oracle email
17:33 < skelterjohn|work> sucks that your troll attempt misfired.
17:34 < knowmercy> I wasn't really trolling though
17:34 < knowmercy> just stating facts
17:34 < skelterjohn|work> the two aren't mutually exclusive
17:34 < knowmercy> :)
17:34 < aiju> if you say that something sucks
17:34 < aiju> you're a troll
17:34 < aiju> that's the definition
17:34 < skelterjohn|work> lol
17:34 < nicka1> but being pro-oracle is def.  always trolling
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17:37 < knowmercy> no, I was stating that the previous emailer was
contradicting himself and that we can affect change
17:37 < skelterjohn|work> (effect)
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17:38 < mkb218> only a matter of time until they buy you
17:38 < nicka1> they could be trying to affect something called change
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17:38 < knowmercy>
http://openindiana.org/pipermail/openindiana-discuss/2011-August/004848.html I
responded to this email
17:38 < skelterjohn|work> it's possible
17:39 < knowmercy>
http://openindiana.org/pipermail/openindiana-discuss/2011-August/004849.html #
This is my response
17:39 < skelterjohn|work> do you think we're more likely to get fired up
than #openindiana?
17:39 < skelterjohn|work> which, fwiw, i have never heard of
17:39 < knowmercy> :)
17:39 < knowmercy> You guys are my buds
17:40 < knowmercy> (whether you accept that or not)
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17:41 < skelterjohn|work> i'll accept it
17:41 < skelterjohn|work> though i don't recognize your nick
17:41 < knowmercy> I'm new
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17:41 < nicka1> knewmercy
17:42 < skelterjohn|work> writing some go code?
17:42 < knowmercy> Yay!
17:42 < knowmercy> Yeah, mostly seeing how it does for web applications
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17:42 < knowmercy> I've exhausted resources with python and java and I need
more from my hardware
17:42 < knowmercy> this seems like the next venue
17:42 < skelterjohn|work> that's it's primary target
17:42 < skelterjohn|work> its
17:42 < knowmercy> I really would like to see it ported to openbsd
17:43 < skelterjohn|work> get started!
17:43 < knowmercy> between GIL and openbsd's biglock I need more power!
17:43 < knowmercy> I'm working on it
17:43 < knowmercy> I got openbsd on my backup laptop, started building
packages and the hardware failed :(
17:43 < knowmercy> so now I need new hardware to test and do dev on
17:44 < knowmercy> In the mean time I started playing around with the web
stuff
17:44 < knowmercy> so far I've tried web.go, the http package in base, and
mango
17:44 < skelterjohn|work> i've used web.go, seemed cool
17:45 < skelterjohn|work> i'm not a big web dev though
17:45 < knowmercy> I think what I'm going to do is instead of handing things
off to http handlers, I'm going to hand them off to http middleware that will do
session, logging, routing, preprocessing, and then hand them off to the right page
handler
17:45 < knowmercy> it's a bit differen than what web.go or mango do
17:46 < knowmercy> and possibly create a config that the app can consume for
path's, ports to listen on, etc
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17:46 < knowmercy> that way running multiple instances of an app on a single
box just requires multiple configs
17:47 < skelterjohn|work> seems reasonable
17:47 < knowmercy> p.s.  I like configs over command line args because they
can be checked into source control, etc
17:47 < skelterjohn|work> yeah, makes sense
17:47 < skelterjohn|work> i usually do command line args because i change
the params around so much
17:48 < knowmercy> is it common to wrap go programs in shell scripts for
such a thing?
17:48 < skelterjohn|work> go programs are no different from any other kind
of program in this respect
17:48 < skelterjohn|work> they have the same kind of interaction with the
invoking context
17:48 < knowmercy> ok
17:49 < knowmercy> at work we're having an issue with .NET where we're not
doing async calls into our back end so the IO threads take new connections, but
block until the original response is returned
17:50 < skelterjohn|work> sounds like something that go is great at
17:50 < knowmercy> Yup
17:50 < knowmercy> xml messages are so 1990's
17:51 < TheMue> hehe
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18:59 < knowmercy> Code review complete
18:59 < knowmercy> I love my job, we seem to keep getting better and better
at certain things which is really encouraging to see
19:04 < skelterjohn|work> they dropped C# for go?
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19:36 < knowmercy> skelterjohn|work: no, not at all they're confused that
it's not java
19:37 < knowmercy> In all honesty the web dev stuff in Go has a ways to go
19:37 < skelterjohn|work> i think the language is there, if the libraries
aren't
19:38 < knowmercy> I agree
19:39 < knowmercy> I'm hoping to find out exactly what the deficiencies are
and help out
19:40 < knowmercy> Of course, my idea of the ideal web framework will be
different than everyone else's
19:40 < knowmercy> I'm mostly a purist, however I liked pylons for python a
lot
19:40 < skelterjohn|work> only because you sell it poorly
19:40 < knowmercy> it gave me all the choices I wanted, allowed me to do
everything I wanted and never got in my way
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19:42 < knowmercy> I wonder if Ben would have an issue if I called mine
pylons.go :)
19:42 < skelterjohn|work> golons
19:42 < schmichael> +1
19:44 < knowmercy> golons sounds good
19:44 < schmichael> djanGO!
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19:44 < knowmercy> so how does the concept of passing in a context with
items in it into a template work currently in go?
19:44 < skelterjohn|work> a new package, exp/template, is under development
19:44 < skelterjohn|work> it's mostly there, but i don't believe it's
completely finished
19:45 < knowmercy> excellent, is that in base, or a package?
19:45 < skelterjohn|work> take a look at its doc - if you have questions
i've used it
19:45 < skelterjohn|work> it's in the core, yeah
19:45 < knowmercy> sweet
19:45 < skelterjohn|work> golang.org/pkg/exp/template
19:45 < aiju> it's the bad side of Google developing Go
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19:45 < aiju> we get all this web development crud
19:45 < knowmercy> I hate to break it to you aiju but the internets are
everywhere
19:46 < aiju> not on my computer
19:46 < knowmercy> bazillions of pages too
19:46 < f2f> that's a lot of brazillians.
19:46 < knowmercy> f2f++
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19:48 < knowmercy> skelterjohn|work: I find it interesting...  is this just
a taglib essentially?
19:48 < skelterjohn|work> not familiar with taglib
19:48 < skelterjohn|work> it's like a suped up fmt.Printf
19:49 < skelterjohn|work> you give it a data structure and a format, and it
pretties it for you
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19:49 < skelterjohn|work> with lots of features re.  embedded templates,
looping, etc
19:49 < TheMue> web dev is pretty fine with go: delivering one template,
front-end is mostly dynamic with e.g.  jquery, and logic with go via rest and
json.
19:51 < knowmercy> skelterjohn|work: I'm used to something like
<table> % for i in foo: <tr
class="i.class"><td>i.name</td></tr>%endfor </table>
19:52 < aiju> Go allows you to do that
19:52 < skelterjohn|work> that's embedding code in data - i don't know of
any go-server-pages
19:52 < knowmercy> You can't do it with direct code since it's compiled,
hence my question about a tag library that would do the same behavior
19:53 < skelterjohn|work> nor do i see any reason to create it.  the
exp/template route is a lot cleaner, impo
19:53 < skelterjohn|work> imo
19:53 < knowmercy> so you build the page with no data in it, make a jquery
XHR and update the dom with the JSON or whatever that comes back?
19:53 < skelterjohn|work> in the same way you could write fmt.Printf("this:
%d\n", 5), you have a more complicated format and a more flexible argument
19:53 < skelterjohn|work> what
19:53 < skelterjohn|work> ?
19:54 < skelterjohn|work> this has nothing to do with js
19:54 < skelterjohn|work> i don't know what XHR is
19:54 < skelterjohn|work> did you read the doc i linked?
19:54 < TheMue> knowmercy: Yep, with some JavaScript/jQuery code this works
pretty fine.
19:54 < knowmercy> ok
19:54 < knowmercy> skelterjohn|work: I did, it appears that Go does it a bit
different than what I'm used to
19:55 < skelterjohn|work> exp/template has nothing in it that is specific to
web pages
19:55 < knowmercy> when you say I'm mixing code in the template, I'm only
using code to make the template display the data that the application returns
19:55 < skelterjohn|work> it's a general purpose formatted output
19:55 < TheMue> knowmercy: Marshalling to and from JSON is also easy.
19:56 < knowmercy> TheMue: I would like to be able to do this all
dynamically on the server if possible
19:56 < knowmercy> there are certain situations that I prefer to do that
with
19:56 < TheMue> knowmercy: And the returned data is wrapped by a struct
(JSON structure) that also contains possible error messages to show them on
screen.
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19:57 < TheMue> knowmercy: If it's done ont the server the amount of data
transferred via slow i/o is larger.
19:57 < knowmercy> that is true
19:57 < knowmercy> that does make a strong case for a paradigm shift
19:57 < TheMue> knowmercy: Also stuff like autoupdating of dynamic content
in intervals is only handable this way.
19:58 < knowmercy> completely static html is served very very very quickly
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19:58 < knowmercy> yeah
19:59 < TheMue> knowmercy: Just take a look at GMail of G+, how they are
working.  HTML5, JS, JSON, CSS and some scalable logic on the server.
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20:01 < knowmercy> I like that
20:01 < knowmercy> the more I think about it the more it makes sense
20:02 < knowmercy> I'm not used to building things that way but I really
agree with what you're saying
20:02 < skelterjohn|work> when this many buzzwords fly across the screen i
always get suspicious that no one actually knows what's going on
20:02 < knowmercy> I do
20:03 < knowmercy> think of how quickly a static html file gets served from
something like nginx
20:03 < knowmercy> so you serve a page that has jquery in it that says, "Get
me the user information for this guy"
20:03 < knowmercy> less information is sent back to the browser, the
information that goes through "slow" I/O is minimized and the user experience is
hightenend
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20:04 < knowmercy> it also makes it easier to refresh the user data
20:04 < moraes> exp/template compiles to go?  no right?
20:04 < moraes> i'm thinking closure templates
20:04 < knowmercy> and once you return the initial page the partial updates
should be really minimal on bandwidth and the browser
20:05 < skelterjohn|work> exp/template compiles to an internal data
structure, not go code
20:05 < skelterjohn|work> you keep it in memory
20:05 < skelterjohn|work> (just like the old template)
20:05 < moraes> ok
20:05 < knowmercy> TheMue: so that initial html file just sends in session
id from a cookie?
20:06 < moraes> will it ever compile to js?
20:06 < moraes> what would be nice is to have something like closure
templates: templates reusable in js / put-your-server-side-language-here
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20:06 < skelterjohn|work> i can confidently say that no, it will not compile
to js
20:06 < moraes> hehehe
20:06 < moraes> i have no idea
20:06 < skelterjohn|work> it's not web specific
20:06 < skelterjohn|work> it's just formatted output
20:07 < moraes> ok
20:07 < skelterjohn|work> you give it a format, a data structure and a
Writer.  it .Write()s
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20:07 < knowmercy> This is really good dialogue
20:09 < moraes> but closure templates uses a java compiler.  and compiles to
java or js.  ew.
20:11 < knowmercy> skelterjohn|work: so you're say we should use this Writer
to write out our json or xml or whatever we choose to report back to the browser
20:11 < skelterjohn|work> i'm not going to go far enough to give advice on
how to create a web server
20:12 < skelterjohn|work> since i have no clue about that
20:12 < knowmercy> :)
20:12 < skelterjohn|work> but that makes sense to me
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20:12 < moraes> exp/regexp has the same feature-set as, say, sre2?
20:13 < knowmercy> so the web framework I'm thinking of now would load in
the static html templates on startup, build cookies, header response info and
return back the static template for normal pages, and then handle xhr to return
data back to the browser
20:13 < skelterjohn|work> moraes: don't know
20:13 < moraes> i mean.  ignore me.  i could just go and read the tests.
20:14 < skelterjohn|work> what is xhr?
20:14 < moraes> ajax
20:14 < knowmercy> xml http request
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20:14 < moraes> the technical term for ajax
20:14 < knowmercy> aka ajax :)
20:14 < skelterjohn|work> json seems slimmer
20:14 < knowmercy> it is
20:14 < moraes> different stuff
20:14 < knowmercy> json goes over jhr
20:14 < knowmercy> :)
20:14 < skelterjohn|work> and go has good facilities for
marshalling/unmarshalling
20:14 < moraes> you use json as a xhr format
20:15 < moraes> or protobuf or whatever
20:15 < moraes> xml and json are most common ones
20:15 < TheMue> knowmercy: You can use cookies, but also keep the session
info inside a variable of the html page, e.g.  a hidden dom element.
20:15 < knowmercy> TheMue: so the template wouldn't be 100% static, just
mostly static
20:15 < knowmercy> TheMue: like they show in the wiki example
20:16 < skelterjohn|work> with my crappy attempt at some web-server stuff, i
put js into my templates
20:18 * knowmercy tries to be sophisticated
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20:18 < knowmercy> Oh, I'm also working on a yubikey validator
20:18 < knowmercy> I hope to contribute that back to the community
20:18 < knowmercy> there is already something that talks to their public
api, this would be to run your own auth service
20:19 < knowmercy> (which I do now)
20:21 * knowmercy imagines everyone googling yubikey and smiling when they find
out how sweet it is :)
20:22 < f2f> i cringe every time somebody describes some piece of software
as "sweet"
20:22 < knowmercy> it's not software
20:23 < f2f> oh, good :)
20:23 < knowmercy> :)
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20:24 < knowmercy> TheMue: the only reason to use the hidden dom element is
to be compatible with folks who don't allow cookies?
20:24 < moraes> i can even get calling it "cute and dandy" but "sweet" is
too much.
20:25 < knowmercy> ok, how about useful
20:25 < knowmercy> will I still get burned at the stake for useful?
20:27 < f2f> the only allowable superlative related to software is that it
may "suck less" :)
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20:29 < moraes> it is nice to use adjectives that are hard to fit to the
matter, like "spicy" or "shinny"
20:29 * moraes will be quiet now
20:29 < aiju> this software is pretty kafkaesque
20:29 < knowmercy> f2f: that's what I usually say about software :)
20:29 < aiju> i think i write pretty peristeronic software
20:29 < moraes> "wow, what a juicy piece of software'
20:30 < aiju> this software is pretty moldy
20:31 < f2f> "your new ajaxified XML jquery JIT parser is positively
delicious!  i detect a hint of tangy fruit in the JSON rendering loop"
20:31 < moraes> now you're getting it
20:33 < moraes> missing words: 'enterprise', 'RESTful' and 'SOA'
20:33 < f2f> *cloud*
20:33 < moraes> yeah!
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20:34 < exch> ooh rrrrr..  Talk dirty to me
20:35 < moraes> hm, yeah exp/regexp pretty much implements a real regexp
engine.
20:35 < moraes> which is pretty cool.
20:35 < TheMue> knowmercy: E.g., yep, cookies are ok if an info has to be
persistent on the client.  But otherwise it can be handled on the page.  Typically
in REST the id is passed with each request and each response (if session info is
needed).
20:36 < aiju> moraes: you mean a bloated one
20:36 < moraes> i wonder if they used some of the word done for sr2.
20:36 < moraes> *work
20:36 < moraes> aiju, no.  a useful one.
20:36 < moraes> *sre2 :)
20:36 < aiju> no programming language is complete without a regexp library
with 100 different symbols
20:37 < moraes> agreed.
20:37 < aiju> http://man2.aiju.de/6/regexp
20:37 < aiju> regex fitting on one page is just useless
20:40 < moraes> coolies
20:40 < moraes> so.  soon these werc-based bages will be running on
appengine-go?
20:40 < aiju> hahaahahaha
20:40 < moraes> *pages.  i can't type.
20:41 < moraes> :)
20:41 < aiju> yeah, they will also be migrated to XML in SQL databases
20:41 < aiju> running on OpenVMS and OS X machines
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20:53 < knowmercy> I see we can't have serious work on here for too long or
the natives get RESTless
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20:59 < knowmercy> on that note, gotta commute
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21:29 < nicka> pretty good rant section aiju
21:30 < aiju> hahaha
21:30 < aiju> how do people even stumble upon my homepage
21:30 < nicka> you linked your regex man page thing
21:30 < nicka> I like the section on oop
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22:35 < fzzbt> does someone have example how to use crypo block cipher with
aes?  i want to encrypt/decrypt some text messages so that they can only be
decrypted with secret key but i know very little of cryptography
22:37 < knowmercy> Home!
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22:39 < schmichael> fzzbt: for blocks of text you want to use something like
CBC...  sadly i think this test might be the best example of using it with aes:
http://golang.org/src/pkg/crypto/cipher/cbc_aes_test.go
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22:41 < schmichael> fzzbt: ah, the cipher package's docs should help:
http://golang.org/pkg/crypto/cipher/
22:42 < schmichael> you'll have to pad your data to the blocksize you're
using (16 bytes for AES)
22:43 < fzzbt> ill take a look
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23:37 < ph1234k> How can I easily read input from stdin without worrying
about the size of the bytes?
23:38 < iant1> what do you want to read?
23:38 < nicka> fmt.Scan?
23:39 < nicka> assuming text
23:40 -!- iant [~iant@nat/google/x-crvzlldrciwjpjtm] has quit [Ping timeout: 250
seconds]
23:41 < nicka> or Fscan with Stdin passed in
23:41 < nicka> sorry that's the same thing
23:42 -!- replore_ [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has
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23:46 < nicka> io.ReadFull
23:46 -!- mode/#go-nuts [+v iant] by ChanServ
23:51 -!- Queue29 [~seth@bastion.sfo1.yelpcorp.com] has quit [Remote host closed
the connection]
23:51 -!- Queue29 [~Queue29@egress-w.sfo1.yelpcorp.com] has joined #go-nuts
23:52 -!- rlab [~Miranda@188-166-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Ping timeout:
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23:58 < ph1234k> ok thank you, I was using os.Stdin.Read(buf)
--- Log closed Wed Aug 03 00:00:19 2011