--- Log opened Wed Aug 17 00:00:20 2011
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00:03 < cbeck> rcrowley: Hmm, I can't duplicate, what os/arch are you on?
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00:04 < rcrowley> Linux i386 (VirtualBox 32-bit Ubuntu Natty)
00:04 < cbeck> Hmm
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00:04 < cbeck> I'm on amd64 natty
00:05 < rcrowley> I'm also on 8g version release.r59 9022
00:06 < rcrowley> Are you on HEAD or a weekly?
00:06 < cbeck> I'm on same release
00:06 < cbeck> Weekly
00:06 < cbeck> Let me think if I have an x86 box anywhere
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00:17 < cbeck> rcrowley: Building w/ 8g on an amd64 box worked fine too.
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00:35 < knowmercy> is it common with go coding to have a function behave
more like a java object?
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00:35 < knowmercy> for instances, I've got a func Login() and Login()
handles many different actions much like a class with many methods would in python
or java
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00:39 < rcrowley> cbeck: Thanks for your help.  I just updated to weekly and
have the same problem.  I'll be filing a bug soon.
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01:19 < knowmercy> I wonder if openbsd support will make it on the slides at
next years google I/O
01:19 < knowmercy> :)
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01:39 < knowmercy> does everyone have me on /ignore?
01:41 < Tv__> knowmercy: yes.
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01:44 < qeed> since golang doesnt have pointer arithmetic if i want to have
a function of some dest that i want to modify i have to pass in offset?  is there
a better way to do this
01:45 < Tv__> qeed: you can pass in a pointer to the item, if that's what
you want
01:45 < Tv__> qeed: you just can't do ptr+42
01:45 < qeed> i want something like &dst[42]
01:45 < qeed> but i guess i cant do that
01:45 < Tv__> that's fine
01:45 < Tv__> that's a pointer to the item at position 42 in the array
01:45 < qeed> and then access it like dst[0] dst[1] etc.  in the function
01:46 < Tv__> then you need to pass dst to the function
01:46 < Tv__> qeed: try reading up on slices first, that might be of use
01:46 < qeed> yeah i mean in C i can do something like func(&dest[10], src)
and have can modify dest starting at 10, what im asking is that i basically need
an offset parameter too if i want to modify at an offset
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01:47 < Tv__> http://golang.org/doc/go_spec.html#Slices
01:51 < s|k> do you guys all use tabs in your go files?
01:51 < Tv__> s|k: whatever gofmt does
01:51 < s|k> it does tabs
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01:52 < shoenig> yea, whatever gofmt uses
01:52 < Tv__> then yes
01:52 < s|k> do you usually run gofmt before you commit?
01:52 < Tv__> not like i'd ever even notice
01:52 < s|k> what editor do you use?
01:52 < s|k> I'd notice in vim
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01:52 < Tv__> for my own projects, it's almost impossible for me to commit
without that -- it's in hooks
01:52 < Tv__> i use emacs
01:52 < s|k> I generally have learned to hate tabs
01:53 < s|k> weird to see it being recommended
01:53 < s|k> I see you can tell gofmt to use spaces but I don't know if I
want to do that if tabs are recommended
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01:53 < Tv__> don't configure gofmt, it's Correct By Definition(tm)
01:54 < s|k> yeah exactly
01:54 < shoenig> what he said
01:54 < s|k> I don't plan on it
01:54 < s|k> I'll just have to add a special tab rule for go files
01:54 < shoenig> the .el files that come with go use the same conventions
01:54 < s|k> since I have them banned by default
01:54 < shoenig> if you're using emacs
01:54 < s|k> using vim
01:54 < Tv__> i have the git magic to always commit gofmt'ed files, if
anyone wants ;)
01:54 < shoenig> s/.el/.vim ?
01:55 < s|k> go has .vim files?
01:55 < Tv__> i just don't use it on others projects, as it makes a mess if
the old version wasn't gofmt clean already
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01:55 < shoenig> look at $GOROOT/misc/vim
01:55 * s|k looks
01:56 < shoenig> they ship a number of highlighting files and whatnot
01:56 < s|k> wow
01:56 < s|k> nice!
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01:59 < s|k> some of this other stuff in misc is interesting too
02:01 < shoenig> yea they've done a nice job with all that
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02:02 < s|k> what's this chrome extension thing
02:02 * s|k isntalls
02:02 < shoenig> no idea
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02:03 < s|k> oh short cut for codereview and issues and stuff
02:03 < s|k> interesting
02:04 < s|k> also the buildbot waterfall
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02:39 < s|k> I think the memory model page should be recommended reading
02:40 < s|k> there's some pretty useful information in there about synching
02:40 < s|k> but the general consensus should be that you shouldn't have to
read it, which I disagree with :\
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02:58 < uriel> s|k: what do you disagree with?
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03:04 < s|k> uriel: on http://golang.org/doc/GoCourseDay3.pdf it says "
03:04 < s|k> But you rarely need to understand them if you follow
03:04 < s|k> our approach"
03:05 < s|k> I was tempted to not read the memory model page, but did
anyways
03:05 < s|k> and afterward I'd say it's pretty important
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03:06 < s|k> by 'them' it's referring to the rules around the memory model
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03:11 < uriel> s|k: why do you think it is so important?
03:12 < uriel> if you use channels and goroutines in idiomatic ways, you
rarely (if ever) need to know about the moemory model
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03:21 < s|k> uriel: I don't think it's good practice to tell people to do
something without explaining why unless it's a complex explanation
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03:21 < s|k> and the memory model page is a pretty easy read
03:22 < Tv__> s|k: using channels etc is not because of details of the
memory model; it's because it's a good idea, independently of that
03:23 < s|k> there was an example on the memory model page
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03:24 < s|k> where someone might use a combination of memory and channels to
attempt to sync
03:24 < s|k> I could see someone maybe thinking that's a good idea, unless
they know how the memory model worked
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03:25 < s|k> the if !done { once.Do(setup) example
03:26 < s|k> you might think it would be a good idea because you avoid the
overhead of synching
03:27 < s|k> except it doesn't work
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03:28 < s|k> I wonder though why goroutines even share the memory space,
they didn't in newsqueak
03:29 < s|k> I don't know, I'm really not qualified to suggest it, just
wondering
03:29 < s|k> I guess you can share memory safely as long as you sync or lock
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03:31 < uriel> IMHO what would be good is more documentation on the *right*
way to use channels/goroutines
03:31 < uriel> s/way/ways/
03:31 < uriel> and that doesn't need to involve the memory model
03:32 < uriel> but I agree that probably understanding the memory model
might help some avoid falling into some obvious pitfalls
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04:25 < |Craig|> s|k: here is an example of why go routines share memory
space: suppose you want to process an image, and want to use all your cores, and
not copy the image.  You need shared memory.  Such cases are pretty common.
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04:38 < s|k> |Craig|: good point
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04:39 < s|k> in other news I have just finished reading the effective go
page, and before that I read the tutorial, the specification and the 3 day slides
04:39 < s|k> yay
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04:39 < s|k> I have yet to write a single line of go though
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04:40 < s|k> all that reading and not doing anything, I don't like it
04:40 < s|k> now I shall actually do something
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04:50 < s|k> it was a mistake to unignore Stiletto
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08:00 < s|k> nope, can't do it, can't do tabs
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08:01 < s|k> just capable of it, I have so much in my .vimrc to hate on tabs
08:01 < s|k> not capable*
08:01 < s|k> tabs are anathema to everything good and wholesome in this
world
08:01 < s|k> I tried I really did
08:02 < s|k> time for an alias for gofmt
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08:30 < hokapoka> s|k: there's already a comment for gofmt & vim in
$GOROOT/misc/vim
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08:30 < hokapoka> s/comment/command/
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11:10 < hokapoka> anyone about?
11:11 < hokapoka> http://pastebin.com/wgJSyXsv <- is this a bug or am I
using time.Parse wrong?
11:11 < hokapoka> Oh, HO I'll update it with the resutls
11:13 < hokapoka> http://pastebin.com/vdVsMskm
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11:20 < hokapoka> If I use time.Parse the day of week that's rendered from
fmt.Println(t) always shows "Sun" while using time.LocalTime it shows the correct
value.
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11:31 < jnwhiteh> for bp != nil { if bp.blocknr == bnum && bp.dev == dev {
11:31 < jnwhiteh> if bp.blocknr, bnum, bp.dev and dev are all ints, how can
I possibly get a nil pointer dereference here..
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11:34 < hokapoka> I can't see how, sorry
11:34 < jnwhiteh> I suspect the compiler is giving me a bad error line,
again
11:34 < jnwhiteh> which make it *very* difficult to debuf
11:34 < jnwhiteh> debug
11:34 < jnwhiteh> I had though that issue was fixed
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11:35 < hokapoka> I've not experianced it TBH
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11:35 < jnwhiteh> this is twice now I've run into it, and its terribly
frustrating.
11:37 < hokapoka> The onlt time I've experianced it it my my own human
error, I wasn't looking as the right point in the stack trace.
11:38 < jnwhiteh> ah, it may be an embedded type
11:39 < jnwhiteh> that might explain it.
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11:42 < hokapoka> Where bp.blocknr or bp.dev are values from an anonymouse
types?
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11:47 < jnwhiteh> hokapoka: yeah
11:47 < jnwhiteh> makes complete sense now, but the error did exist before
=)
11:47 < jnwhiteh> good to know its not a problem anymore
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12:26 < bjarneh> hokapoka: there is no calculation in time.Parse to find the
right values for the different fields, if they cannot be read from the format
string, i.e., they will hold the default value (0) it seems, (Sun == 0)
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12:27 < hokapoka> bjarneh: yeah, I posted on the mail list and rog replied.
I recall asking the question before now.
12:28 < bjarneh> hokapoka: ok
12:28 < hokapoka> All I needed todo was convert the seconds of t to a
*time.Time via time.Seconds.ToLocalTime(t)
12:29 < hokapoka> opps, t = time.SecondsToLocalTime(t.Seconds()); even
12:30 < bjarneh> it would be pretty fancy if it actually did the calculation
and found a legal value for all the field, given a user defined format string
though :-)
12:31 < hokapoka> It woudl be nice for an additional Parse func that would
do that.  time.ParseFull("2006-01-02", "2011-08-17") for example
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12:33 < bjarneh> yes, that would be a good idea
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14:35 < moraes> grrr.  i want to go back to my go but i have to do the
python.
14:37 < moraes> uriel, i updated jedit's go mode.  the ones from cat-v have
missing/extra keywords/types.  should i bug you here?  :)
14:38 < uriel> moraes: email me the update
14:38 < uriel> moraes: I'm assuming you are enjoying Go then?  :)
14:38 < moraes> uriel, i'd prefer to keep a link to the repository
14:38 < moraes> in case i need to update it
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14:40 < moraes> uriel, i am.  some things are annoying though.
14:40 < uriel> moraes: what do you find annoying?
14:40 < aiju> me?
14:40 < uriel> (curious, I'd be surprised if you had not found anything
anoying :))
14:40 < uriel> aiju: HAHAHA
14:41 < moraes> uriel, when you need getters/setters it is convoluted
14:42 < uriel> I'm not sure, how often do you need getters and setters?
14:42 < moraes> once so far.
14:42 < moraes> :P
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14:42 < moraes> the compile errors are pretty sweet, aren't them?
14:42 < uriel> also I like the convention of doing x.Foo() rather than
x.GetFoo()
14:42 < moraes> yeah i followed that
14:43 < uriel> compiler errors are fairly good, although there is still
margin for improvement, and they have been improved somewhat lately
14:44 < moraes> uriel,
http://code.google.com/p/go-stuff/source/browse/editors/jEdit/go.xml
14:44 < moraes> should i mail you?
14:45 < uriel> nah, if it is just that I will download it myself, thanks!
14:46 < moraes> uriel, keep a link.  it won't go away from there.
14:46 < uriel> moraes: is your version completely different from the one in
my site?
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14:46 < moraes> uriel, the versions you have are outdated
14:47 < moraes> some built-ins don't exist anymore
14:47 < moraes> some types are missing
14:47 < uriel> aha, i just tried to do a diff, but pretty much said
'everything changed'
14:47 < uriel> is your version based on that version?  (just wondering if I
should say "updated by moraes" in the credits)
14:48 < uriel> oh, wait, the problem is that i wgetted
14:48 < uriel> bleh
14:48 < moraes> uriel, the version i used is one of yours.  the best one.
14:49 < uriel> aha
14:49 < moraes> it didn't have credits but i discovered it was made by
"Cedric Simon"
14:49 < uriel> it is not mine, I must have got it from someone, I have never
used jedit :)
14:49 < moraes> it came from mailing list
14:50 < moraes> anyway.  it now has the updated types and keywords.
14:51 < aiju> uriel putting XML voluntarily on his website
14:51 < aiju> what the fuck is going on?
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14:52 < moraes> actually it has "float" and "int" as types.  see.  you must
keep a link instead.
14:53 < moraes> oh.  only float is invalid.
14:53 < uriel> heh, I know I probably should, but I got burned too many
times with things going away which were never supposed to go away ;)
14:53 < moraes> i won't go away.
14:53 < moraes> i hope so!
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15:00 < uriel> hehehe
15:00 < uriel> moraes: I'm curious, what else do you find annoyhing in Go?
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15:00 < s|k> how do people generally add third party go libraries/packages
into their path?
15:01 < s|k> just copy the thing into their directory from which they build?
15:01 < moraes> uriel, i'm pretty confused with pointer magic.  :-/ but
that's just noobness.
15:02 < s|k> moraes: being able to use the . selector with both structs
stored as values and as pointers?
15:02 < s|k> or the anonymous field lookup deal?
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15:02 < moraes> the whole damn thing.
15:03 < s|k> how is it confusing
15:03 < s|k> seems pretty clear to me :/
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15:03 < moraes> e.g., func Foo() MyInterface {}
15:03 < moraes> so i can't have func Foo() *MyInterface {}
15:04 < moraes> these are the things i get as compilation errors.
15:04 < moraes> :P
15:05 < s|k> you can't?
15:05 < moraes> nope.
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15:06 < moraes> no idea if it is possible to return a pointer to an object
that implements interface.
15:06 < moraes> anyway, i'm just not used to the whole thing.
15:06 < s|k> hrm
15:06 < s|k> don't see anything not allowing it in the spec
15:06 < moraes> i see it not being allowed by the compiler.
15:06 < uriel> moraes: I'm not sure what you mean, you can return an
interface type
15:07 < moraes> uriel, you can't have func Foo() *MyInterface {}
15:07 < moraes> i don't know if that makes sense.
15:07 < uriel> you can't have methods on interface types (for IMHO somewhat
obvious reasons, although this was discussed in the list and I understand it might
be a bit confusing for people)
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15:08 < leterip> you dont need to return a pointer to an interface because
an interface value is just two bytes anyway
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15:08 < leterip> its two pointers
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15:09 < uriel> moraes: can you paste the whole code (or a simplified
testcase)
15:10 < moraes> let me make one quick
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seconds]
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15:11 < leterip> actually you can return a pointer to an interface anyway
15:11 < leterip> i dont see why you'd ever need to but
15:11 < leterip> http://goo.gl/29ruu
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15:20 < moraes> i probably just don't understand it.
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15:21 < uriel> if you show us your code maybe we can try to explain
15:24 < moraes> uriel, from http package: func NewServeMux() *ServeMux { ...
15:25 < moraes> it could be func NewServeMux() ServeMux { as well, couldn't
it?
15:25 < moraes> i don't understand the notation.
15:25 < moraes> no.  it would not work.
15:25 < moraes> :P
15:26 < moraes> so then i have an example.
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15:29 < moraes> leterip,
http://golang.org/doc/play/#package%20main%0A%0Aimport%20%22fmt%22%0A%0Atype%20Foo%20interface%20%7B%0A%7D%0A%0Atype%20Bar%20struct%20%7B%0A%20%20%20%20s%20string%0A%7D%0A%0A%2F%2F%20You%20can't%20use%20*Foo%20notation%20here%2C%20but%20it%20returns%20*Bar.%0Afunc%20Baz()%20Foo%20%7B%0A%20%20%20%20return%20%26Bar%7Bs%3A%22bar%22%7D%0A%7D%0A%0Afunc%20main()%20%7B%0A%20%20%20%20fmt.Printf(%22%25v%22%2C%20Baz())%0A%7D
15:29 < moraes> ooops
15:30 < moraes> sorry
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15:31 < leterip> haha cant forget the url shortener :)
15:32 < moraes> pasted too fast
15:33 < s|k> the problem in that
15:33 < s|k> is not the return type
15:33 < leterip> i think my irc client cut off the url
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15:34 < moraes> leterip, http://goo.gl/eiAHg
15:35 < uriel> moraes: I think the confusion is that a pointer to an
interface type Foo is not the same as a pointer to a type that implmeents
interface Foo
15:35 < s|k> ^^
15:35 < uriel> not sure if that makes sense
15:35 < moraes> it does
15:35 < s|k> it does
15:36 < moraes> and my doubt was that i could not represent the later
15:36 < s|k> just get rid of the *
15:36 < moraes> i did
15:36 < uriel> moraes: interfaces are already pointer types
15:36 < uriel> but if you want the later, then you have to cast to interface
Foo first
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15:38 < leterip> http://goo.gl/P7rIs
15:38 < moraes> oooh
15:38 < leterip> a pointer to an interface is a distinct type
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15:38 < leterip> a pointer to an interface is not an interface
15:39 < leterip> so you dont get automatic conversions like you do with
interfaces
15:39 < moraes> okay
15:39 < leterip> but really theres no reason to return a pointer to an
interface that i can think of
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15:40 < leterip> because interfaces are implemented by the runtime as a
pointer to the underlying data and a pointer to some method table
15:40 -!- tncardoso [~thiago@20158009134.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined
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15:40 < leterip> or something like that.  theres a great blog post
explaining it somewhere
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15:40 < jessta> leterip: not always a pointer, depends on how big the type
is.
15:41 -!- ancientlore_ [~ancientlo@12.54.6.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 260
seconds]
15:41 < moraes> no reason to return a pointer to a type that implements
interface Foo?
15:42 < jessta> no reason to return a pointer to an interface
15:42 < leterip> oh yeah thats right.  it does do that optimization.
15:43 < jessta> you can certainly return a pointer to a type
15:44 < moraes> i was confused because i wanted that and my first attempt
was to declare *Foo
15:44 < moraes> but i see how it is different
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15:44 < jessta> moraes: interfaces wrap their underlying type
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15:47 < hokapoka> If it sounds like a duck, it goes QUACK!
15:47 -!- saschpe [~quassel@opensuse/member/saschpe] has quit [Remote host closed
the connection]
15:47 < aiju> if it sounds like a duck, eat it
15:47 -!- saschpe [~quassel@opensuse/member/saschpe] has joined #go-nuts
15:47 < hokapoka> Mmmmmm, with hoisin sauce
15:48 < mpl> hoisie sauce?  is that a new web template framework?
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15:49 < hokapoka> heh
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15:51 < qeed_> i want to check if references are the same, it seems that map
doesnt support stuff like []int, whats a good way to do it
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15:55 < hokapoka> When you say references are the same, you want to compare
2, or more, references to objects and see if ther are the same instance?
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15:56 < qeed_> yes
15:56 < hokapoka> Why not compare the pointers?
15:57 < qeed_> so like []a = some_reference []b = some_reference &a is the
same as &b?
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16:02 < jessta> qeed_: you want to check if two slices cover the same
memory?
16:02 < qeed_> yeah
16:03 < hokapoka> http://goo.gl/5pPja
16:04 < qeed_> that links to hello world code for me
16:04 < jessta> me too...
16:05 < hokapoka> oh and me :(
16:05 < jessta> qeed_: you can't compare slices directly...I'm not sure why
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16:06 < hokapoka> But you can pass them by pointer to a func as interface{}
and compare the
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16:07 < qeed_> i recleaned the code a little so it can check offset rather
than pointers so i dont mind though that is weird if you have to go through a hoop
just to check slices
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16:07 < jessta> but you could compare the address of their first item, and
len and cap
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16:11 < hokapoka> http://pastebin.com/fyCen3rw
16:11 < hokapoka> But, of course, you need to pass them by pointers.
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16:15 < jessta> hokapoka: you can just compare the pointers directly
16:15 < jessta> eg.  if &t == &t {/*they match*/}
16:16 < hokapoka> Aye, the same func was there so I could play with
different inputs.
16:17 < jessta> but that only works if you're trying to compare the same
slice with itself
16:17 < jessta> comparing two copies of the same slice isn't going to work
like that
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seconds]
16:18 < hokapoka> Yeah, but if they are 2 copies of the smae slice, they
aren't referencing the same instance.
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16:21 < hokapoka> Like you suggested you need to compare the items in the
underlying array.
16:22 < jessta> you just have to compare the address of the first item.
16:23 < hokapoka> Assuming there no chance that item isn't going to be in
another slice too.
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16:30 < hokapoka> a := []int{1,2,3,4,5}; s1 := append(a[:1], a[2]); s2 :=
append(a[:1], a[4]); /* a, s1 & s2 */ all point to the same underlying array,
right?
16:30 < s|k> moraes: actually I guess I was confused about interfaces and
pointers too
16:30 < hokapoka> And their cap / len will also match, I think.
16:30 < s|k> I just didn't know it
16:30 < s|k> an interface can be assigned a struct as a value and as a
pointer
16:31 < moraes> yeah sooner or later it'll be pretty natural.  just keep
go'ing.
16:31 < hokapoka> heh
16:31 < s|k> if you assign it as a value it does indirection
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16:31 < f2f> hokapoka, append may reallocate and return a new slice
16:31 < s|k> but if you don't have a pointer it adds the indirection
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16:32 < s|k> var v Interface; v = Bar{s:"bar"}; is the same as v =
&Bar{s:"bar"};
16:32 < jessta> f2f: append always returns a new slice, sometimes that slice
is of a different array
16:32 < s|k> ?
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16:33 < f2f> ok, s/return a new slice/return a slice backed by a different
array/
16:34 < hokapoka> jessta: when you different array does that depend on what
you're parsing into append, or is there soem kinda of optimastion
16:34 < hokapoka> s/optimastion/optimization
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16:37 < jessta> hokapoka: you get a new array if you append operation
overflows the cap of the slice(and thus the original array)
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16:39 < jessta> hokapoka: in the above cases the cap of the slices
append()'ed to was large enough not to cause an allocation
16:39 < s|k> http://goo.gl/NyjyV
16:39 < s|k> moraes: ^^^ that's what I mean :/
16:40 < s|k> you can assign both a pointer to a struct or a struct and it
behaves the same way
16:40 < s|k> oh nvermind
16:40 < s|k> wrong url
16:40 < moraes> that's mine
16:40 < s|k> how do I get the url
16:40 < s|k> if I change it
16:41 < moraes> you need to go to home and pop it up
16:41 < jessta> hokapoka: also, in the above cases s1 and s2 will only have
a len() of 2 but the same cap as a
16:41 < s|k> moraes: http://goo.gl/FBtF6
16:41 < s|k> there
16:42 < s|k> moraes: thanks for bringing this up, I didn't know.  I don't
remember anything in the specification about this
16:43 < leterip> they arent exactly the same thing
16:43 < hokapoka> jessta: And that's because, in the above case, s1 and s1
are only using items for a.
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seconds]
16:43 < s|k> leterip: they're not?
16:43 < leterip> for example, try making GetString take a pointer receiver.
then you cant assign Bar{s:"bar"} to a Foo
16:44 < leterip> but you can assign a &Bar{s:"moo"}
16:44 < s|k> right
16:44 < s|k> oh
16:44 < s|k> so what's going on there
16:44 < leterip> i really dont know lol
16:44 < leterip> gonna think about it for a bit
16:45 < s|k> "Selectors automatically dereference pointers to structs."
16:45 < s|k> maybe that's it
16:45 * moraes ' head explodes
16:45 < leterip> it has something to do with that
16:45 < hokapoka> jessta: If we were to add some items to s2 that would
exceed a's cap it would cause it to reallocate.  Would there then be 2 underlying
arrays, 1 that a and s1 address and another that s2 addresses?
16:45 < s|k> http://golang.org/doc/go_spec.html#Selectors
16:46 < jessta> hokapoka: yep
16:46 < s|k> I wish the go play ground had line numbers
16:46 < leterip> totally ballers
16:46 < s|k> I keep counting down the lines if I have errors
16:46 < leterip> oops mt lol
16:46 < leterip> yeah that is annoying
16:47 < hokapoka> Okay, and eventho s2 conatined an item from a (via a[:1]
lets say) the reallocation would would have that item added to it, and it would be
a totally different address space?
16:47 < leterip> i never understood conforming to interfaces and pointer
method receivers.  always tripped me up
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16:47 < leterip> and id always just add and remove *'s until it worked lol
16:47 < s|k> heh
16:48 < s|k> I think there's a section about it in effective go
16:48 < s|k> let me look
16:48 < s|k> http://golang.org/doc/effective_go.html#pointers_vs_values
16:48 < s|k> "The rule about pointers vs.  values for receivers is that
value methods can be invoked on pointers and values, but pointer methods can only
be invoked on pointers.  "
16:49 < s|k> doesn't really bring up interfaces though
16:49 < leterip> ohh
16:49 < leterip> since a pointer method can only be invoked on a pointer
16:49 < leterip> the interface can only invoke the pointer method if it has
a pointer
16:49 < leterip> i guess?
16:49 < s|k> ahh
16:49 < s|k> yeah that's right
16:49 < jessta> hokapoka: yep.  s2 would have a complete copy of the array
underlying a plus any items you appended to it
16:50 < jessta> *underlying 'a'
16:50 < hokapoka> jessta: Oh so even tho I didn't append all the items from
a to s2 it would still create an array with all of the items underlying a?
16:50 < moraes> leterip, you still add and remove *'s until it works?
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16:51 < leterip> moraes: yeah sometimes.  im still learnin :)
16:51 < s|k> well I think I get it now
16:51 < moraes> okay.  heh.  i do this too a lot.
16:51 < s|k> if the method requires a pointer as a receiver and you have a
value the value doesn't implement the method
16:52 < s|k> if the value doesn't implement the method it doesn't adhere to
the interface
16:52 < hokapoka> jessta: It's not like it'll have too great an impact on my
code but it's nice to have a better understanding of the dynamics, well mechanics.
16:52 < s|k> problem solved?
16:52 < hokapoka> jessta: Many thanks much appricated.
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16:53 < jessta> hokapoka: yeah, it's kind of nescessary to know if you want
to use append()
16:54 < jessta> because if you're not careful you can have slices that you
think refer to the same place, but in fact don't
16:54 < leterip> yeah
16:55 < leterip> s|k: i think a lot of the confusion is that you can call
methods with pointer or value receivers on either a T or a *T and have it work
fine
16:55 < leterip> but interfaces have to have a *T if one of the methods has
a pointer receiver.
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seconds]
16:57 < hokapoka> jessta: Yeah I only started using append recently, prior
to that I was manually testing the cap etc all the time.
16:57 < leterip> http://goo.gl/ezpd7
16:59 < s|k> Seems to make sense to pretty much always use a pointer to a
struct instead of a struct
16:59 < s|k> and to declare the receivers of methods to be pointers
17:00 < s|k> trying to think of a case when you would want a value
17:00 < s|k> I guess when the value is smaller than a pointer?
17:00 < s|k> and no indirection is needed?
17:01 < s|k> :\
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17:01 < jessta> s|k: yep, or when you want a copy
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17:01 < s|k> ah
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17:01 < s|k> yes that makes sense
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17:02 < hokapoka> You guys might find this a helpful read :
http://research.swtch.com/2009/12/go-data-structures-interfaces.html
17:03 < hokapoka> s|k, moraes & leterip ^^
17:04 < moraes> thank you, hokapoka.
17:05 < s|k> hokapoka: thanks
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17:06 < leterip> ahh yeah thats the post that i was talking about before
17:07 < hokapoka> IIRC there's a prev post on Data Structures and how
structs & pointers are managed
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17:12 < leterip> hmm.  i get that if you have an interface I with some
method, and a type T that has that method with a pointer receiver, you cant pass
off a T as an I, it needs to be a *T.
17:12 < leterip> i dont see why they have that limitation though.
17:13 < aiju> leterip: it wouldn't work otherwise?
17:14 < leterip> im not seeing why
17:14 < aiju> pointer receiver usually implies modifying the object
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17:15 < leterip> yeah but an interface stores a pointer to the object
(ignoring the optimization for a sec) anyway
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17:15 < leterip> so why cant it pass that pointer as the receiver?
17:15 < aiju> are you sure it isn't copied?
17:15 < leterip> yeah
17:16 < leterip> based on
http://research.swtch.com/2009/12/go-data-structures-interfaces.html
17:16 < aiju> documentation sometimes lies
17:16 < leterip> or else how could you have an array of interface{} values?
17:16 < leterip> it needs to know how much memory to allocate
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17:16 < f2f> leterip, for the same reason you can't pass T to a function
expecting a *T as an argument.
17:17 < s|k> hokapoka: that's an interesting blog post, but why does he
refer to an interface as a 'data structure'
17:17 < f2f> interfaces don't factor into it, you're just getting tripped by
the static typing
17:17 < s|k> I suppose in the implmentation level it is being tracked by a
data structure
17:17 < leterip> f2f but it seems like interfaces are smart enough to do the
indirection one way like, if you had a value receiver
17:17 < s|k> implementation*
17:18 < aiju> runtime.convT2E is called if you pass a struct to an interface
17:19 < s|k> why does the documenation lie
17:19 < s|k> that's not good
17:19 < s|k> well the specification
17:19 < s|k> I'd say if the implemenation differed from the spec, that's a
bug
17:19 < aiju> convT2E does a copy
17:20 < jessta> s|k: an interface is a runtime data structure
17:20 < aiju> an interface is still specified by the specs
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17:21 < jessta> leterip: the pointer being stored in the interface is an
implementation detail and is an optimisation in the case of a large value
17:22 < s|k> that makese sense
17:22 < leterip> jessta: i meant when the data is smaller than the size of
the pointer it skips doing the pointer
17:22 < leterip> "The second word in the interface value points at the
actual data, in this case a copy of b."
17:22 < aiju> _a copy of b_
17:22 < leterip> so it does make a copy, but the interface data structure
stores the copy
17:22 < leterip> right
17:22 < leterip> at the end of a pointer
17:23 < f2f> leterip, i imagine if you automatically turned T into *T when
that was required by function type definitions you'd turn things into a mess
rather quickly, although I can't think of a good example at the moment.
17:23 < leterip> f2f yeah id like to see why it was excluded for interfaces
but not for regular values.
17:24 < leterip> like you can do x := &T{}; x.Value(); x.Pointer(); and itll
work fine for &T or T
17:24 < leterip> but not for an interface
17:24 < s|k> you can't cast an interface variable to the original type you
assigned it or assign it back into a variable expecting the original type right
17:24 < leterip> if you had interface I { Pointer(); Value(); }, you can
only assign &T to an I (assuming Pointer is implemented with a pointer receiver on
T)
17:25 < s|k> in which case it makese sense to track whether an interface
variable was assigned a pointer to a struct or a struct and to not consider
pointer receiver methods implemented on a pointer to a struct
17:26 < s|k> er
17:26 < s|k> on a value
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17:28 < leterip> i guess i'm confused because a *T and a T both have the
same set of methods through magic implied indirection of the ., so why can't
interfaces do that too?
17:29 < jessta> leterip: because an interface can only hold one type at a
time
17:29 < jessta> and that type is either *T or T
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17:31 < leterip> hmm
17:31 < leterip> i get that they hold one type at a time.  lemme try
rewording
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17:36 < leterip> actually i think i get why you can't do it that way
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17:48 < wrtp> leterip: yes, it's obvious when you start to think about it
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17:52 < s|k> you can't use the magic indirection of the . to call methods
that require pointers on structs that are stored as values you can you?
17:52 < s|k> that require pointers as receivers on methods that is
17:52 < leterip> sure you can
17:53 < s|k> so if you've defined func (p *Point) plot () you can call that
on var p *Point and var p Point?
17:53 < leterip> yeah
17:53 < s|k> huh?
17:53 < s|k> how does that make sense?
17:54 < s|k> :\
17:54 * s|k tries it on the playground
17:55 < nicka1> that's backwards is it not?
17:55 < kevlar_work> no
17:55 < kevlar_work> in a lot of cases you can call pointer- and
value-receiver methods from both a pointer- and a value-type
17:56 < kevlar_work> the only time you can't is when it's not addressable or
when it's actually an interface
17:57 < kevlar_work> at least, that's what I think I discovered when I was
playing around with all of this.
17:57 < s|k> you can
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17:57 < s|k> I was wrong
17:57 < s|k> !
17:58 < leterip> this is helpful: he method set of any other named type T
consists of all methods with receiver type T. The method set of the corresponding
pointer type *T is the set of all methods with receiver *T or T (that is, it also
contains the method set of T).
17:58 < s|k> I still think it makes sense to use pointers to structs and
pointers as receivers whenever possible
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17:59 < s|k> leterip: I like that
17:59 < leterip> calling a method with a pointer receiver on a type T is
just letting go do syntactic sugar i think
17:59 < kevlar_work> leterip, elsewhere it says that x.y() can also mean
(&x).y(), which is the other half of it.
17:59 < leterip> right
17:59 < kevlar_work> no no, they're not the same
17:59 < kevlar_work> what you posted is saying that x.y() can be syntactic
sugar for x->y()
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18:00 < nicka1> http://golang.org/doc/effective_go.html#pointers_vs_values
says "The rule about pointers vs.  values for receivers is that value methods can
be invoked on pointers and values, but pointer methods can only be invoked on
pointers." but you actually can invoke pointer methods on values
18:00 < s|k> someone call Rob Pike in here
18:00 < s|k> ;\
18:00 < kevlar_work> you don't like my explanation?  lol
18:00 < leterip> kevlar_work: whats the difference
18:01 < qeed_> why dont golang have a trees in the container
18:01 < kevlar_work> qeed_, because the interface{} loops through which you
have to jump makes it impractical and inefficient.
18:01 < s|k> nicka1: yes
18:01 < s|k> that's what I thought
18:01 < s|k> but that's wrong
18:01 < nicka1> the quote?
18:02 < s|k> it seems to be
18:02 < s|k> I just invoked a pointer method on a value and it worked
18:02 < nicka1> it's not enforced by the compiler at least
18:02 < kevlar_work> leterip, think about it.  if x is a pointer, (*x).y()
is the value method and x.y() is the pointer method
18:02 < s|k> so if the effective go page says you can't, it's wrong
18:02 < kevlar_work> this is always valid
18:02 < nicka1> and yeah, it still works as if you called it on &x
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18:02 < kevlar_work> but if x is not a pointer, x.y() is the value method
(always legal) and (&x).y() is the pointer method, which is only valid if x is
addressable
18:03 < s|k> kevlar_work: but then the effective go page is wrong when it
says "but pointer methods can only be invoked on pointers." since you can as long
as if x is addressable
18:03 < s|k> -if
18:04 < kevlar_work> s|k, effective go is simplifying it to make your life
easier.
18:04 < s|k> "can only" seems pretty straight forward
18:04 < s|k> but I agree using pointers for pointer methods makes sense
18:04 < kevlar_work> and so you don't rely on the addressability, because as
soon as you use an interface or map, you can no longer call the pointer-receiver
methods
18:04 < s|k> right
18:04 < kevlar_work> and technically it is correct
18:05 < s|k> hrm
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18:05 < kevlar_work> it just doesn't mention that x.y() can be synctactic
sugar for (&x).y()
18:05 < kevlar_work> which is still calling the method on the pointer.
18:05 < s|k> and this is why I am on irc
18:05 < s|k> that makese sense kevlar_work
18:05 < leterip> so really you can only call pointer methods on pointer
types and value methods on value types, the compiler is just smart enough to take
an address if it needs to
18:06 < s|k> if it can
18:06 < s|k> compiler will catch this though
18:06 < kevlar_work> or dereference if it needs to
18:06 < s|k> so it wouldn't ever be a run time problem
18:06 < kevlar_work> but yes
18:06 < kevlar_work> now, my turn to ask a question: I have a "dispatcher"
goroutine and lots of "client" goroutines who can die/give up/close down...
what's the most idiomatic way to handle these cases and not risk deadlock?
18:07 < kevlar_work> if the client synchronously tells the dispatcher it's
closing, the dispatcher might be blocking on a send to the client...  deadlock.
18:07 < s|k> select with a default
18:07 < s|k> right?
18:08 < kevlar_work> s|k, but then the dispatcher would drop messages
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18:08 < pharris> kevlar_work: Always select on the "I'm shutting down
channel" in combination with sending to the "client", maybe?
18:08 < kevlar_work> I'm considering starting a goroutine which just reads
from the client's incoming channel until it closes, sending the "I'm done" to the
dispatcher, and having the dispatcher close the client's channel
18:08 < leterip> dispatcher sends a channel for responses to the clients
18:09 < s|k> maybe additional channels to handle the quit and give up
18:09 < leterip> another goroutine to read responses?
18:09 < kevlar_work> there aren't any responses other than "I'm closing
down" which isn't synchronous and could happen at any time
18:09 < kevlar_work> and I would have to synchronize on a map if I had two
goroutines
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18:10 < kevlar_work> is the "infinite sink" goroutine a bad idea?
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18:10 < leterip> instead of sending down a channel do go func() { client
<- data }()
18:10 < kevlar_work> It all works in my head, I'm just not 100% confident in
that this early in the morning :)
18:10 < leterip> lol
18:11 < leterip> you can add timers and selects to make it timeout and close
18:11 < kevlar_work> I don't want to do that, as it leaks goroutines
18:11 < kevlar_work> eh, that's dirty :)
18:11 < kevlar_work> my solution is similar to your go func() though:
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18:12 < kevlar_work> at the end of the client goroutine, go func() { for _
:= range incoming {} }; dispatcher.closing <- incoming
18:12 < leterip> doesn't that leak too
18:12 < leterip> and risk losing things
18:12 < kevlar_work> and whenever dispatcher gets around to reading from its
closing channel, it will close the client's incoming channel, which makes that
goroutine go away
18:13 < leterip> ah
18:13 < leterip> it could still leak a request if stuff lines up wrong i
think
18:13 < kevlar_work> it will discard messages that come after the client
closed, which is fine for now
18:13 < leterip> personally id do like..
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18:14 < leterip> go func() { timer := time.Tick(10s) select { case client
<- data: sent <- true; case <-timer.C: sent <- false } }(); worked
<- sent;
18:14 < leterip> so that if it fails you can retry with a different client
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18:14 < leterip> 10 seconds is clearly too long but
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18:15 < kevlar_work> leterip, there's no retrying; the message is destined
for a single client and a single client only
18:15 < leterip> oh ok then
18:15 < kevlar_work> also, when you're working with a million messages a
second, timeouts = bad news
18:15 < leterip> yeah.
18:15 < leterip> yours works cool then
18:15 < kevlar_work> if I think it's dropping messages, I'll just add a log
to the for {} loop
18:16 < kevlar_work> :D
18:16 < leterip> in the for _ := range incoming {}, you could actually send
the messages to an unhandled channel or something
18:16 < leterip> yeah
18:16 < kevlar_work> yeah, I may queue them up and send them back to the
dispatcher for reprocessing down the road
18:16 < kevlar_work> but for now, it shouldn't happen, but if it does I
really don't want the thing to deadlock.
18:16 < leterip> im pretty sure that'd eliminate any deadlocks
18:17 < kevlar_work> k, cool :)
18:17 < kevlar_work> I just wanted some reassurance, as I have been known to
do silly things in code before noon.
18:17 < leterip> well dont trust me
18:17 < leterip> lol
18:17 < kevlar_work> as long as my logic seems sound.
18:18 < Halavanja> Channels are supposed to help avoid deadlock.  So that is
a very sound idea
18:18 < leterip> personally id have a separate goroutine for handling
clients coming up/down
18:18 < leterip> and sync access for gets/sets with a mutex
18:18 < leterip> and have the dispatcher query that
18:20 < leterip> that seems easier to reason about maybe
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18:22 < leterip> actually i think that could still deadlock
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18:59 < f2f> panic("not panicking")
18:59 < f2f> love it :)
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19:46 < Kahvi> I just realized I'm all out happy about how Go makes it easy
to utilize multiple cores but I have only one core.  :/
19:47 < aiju> heh
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19:47 < Kahvi> At least I got Hyper Threading.
19:47 < aiju> i have only one machine with multiple cores
19:48 < huin> it's by far at its most efficient with one thread anyway
19:48 < aiju> haha hyper threading
19:48 < f2f> you can get benefits from parralel IO even if you only have one
core.
19:48 < Kahvi> At least I think so.
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19:49 < Kahvi> f2f, I didn't know that.
19:50 < aiju> i would assume multiple I/O devices to be necessary in order
to make use of that
19:50 < aiju> and buffering also offsets that
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19:58 < f2f> kahvi, every time you're waiting for i/o to complete another
thread/proc can be doing something productive on the same cpu :)
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20:22 < niemeyer> Kahvi: Concurrency vs.  parallelism..  modeling problems
concurrently has benefits even if they're not actually run in parallel
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20:23 < niemeyer> Kahvi: It becomes pretty obvious if you realize your
kernel is running on a single core as well, but you have multiple processes
running
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20:24 < Kahvi> I've noticed that the good way--by programming.
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20:58 < wobsite> Hey - I'm trying to debug a go program with gdb.  The
method names seem to be separated from the type name by something that looks like
a dash, but is shorter.  So if I want to list the foo method of the bar type, I
type list package.bar<that-character>foo - does anyone know what
<that-character> is, and more importantly how do I type it?
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21:07 < aiju> wobsite: ·
21:07 < aiju> maybe
21:08 < wobsite> yeah.  that's the one how does one type that on an xterm?
21:08 < aiju> copy & paste?  ;P
21:08 < hokapoka> copy paste?
21:08 < hokapoka> heh
21:08 < wobsite> *sigh* I was looking for something quicker.
21:08 < aiju> i have alt gr + ,
21:08 < wobsite> yeah, I did that then piped it into printf, which claims
it's ascii 0.
21:09 < aiju> it's not ascii
21:09 < wobsite> yeah, that's seemed like a weird result to me.
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21:11 < f2f> does 6nm not print it?
21:12 < hokapoka> FOUND IT
21:12 < hokapoka> opps, caps locak on
21:12 < f2f> ·
21:12 < hokapoka> ·
21:12 < f2f> 6nm | grep initdone
21:12 < hokapoka> AltGr + Ctrl + .
21:13 < hokapoka> oh no, that's not right
21:13 < hokapoka> ·
21:13 < aiju> your UTF-8 is broken
21:14 < hokapoka> Just AltGr + . works, on my UK layout
21:14 < wobsite> alt + , gives me a logical not, once I've rebound my mod
key so I can use alt.
21:14 < f2f> unicoe 00b7
21:14 < f2f> s/oe/ode/
21:14 < wobsite> is alt gr even bound on a us layout?
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21:16 < leterip> it looks like alt+8 on os x.
21:16 < f2f> $ alias wdot='unicode 0x00b7'
21:16 < f2f> $ echo `wdot`
21:16 < f2f> ·
21:16 < f2f> but you've got to have p9p
21:17 < wobsite> well, I do.  so that works
21:17 < wobsite> except that I've got to type this into a gdb prompt..
21:17 < wobsite> I guess I could find the other end of the pty..
21:17 < wobsite> (why on earth would an obscure unicode character be used
for this?)
21:19 < f2f> because it's there?  :)
21:19 < wobsite> No it's not.  not on my keyboard.
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21:19 < wobsite> which is my complaint.
21:20 < wobsite> what was wrong with . ?
21:21 < pharris> gdb interprets . and tries to index a pointer/struct that
isn't there.
21:21 < pharris> (wild guess)
21:21 < wobsite> it's already used for package namespaces.
21:21 < wobsite> why use something different for subnamespaces?
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21:22 < Namegduf> I thought it wasn't.
21:22 < Namegduf> I thought it used the unicode thing for package
namespaces, too.
21:22 < wobsite> nope, on my system it's a .
21:22 < f2f> can you paste what you're seeing in gdb?
21:23 < wobsite> os.*File·read
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21:23 < wobsite> for example.
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21:24 < f2f> 6g?
21:25 < uriel> inw38
21:25 < uriel> bleh
21:25 < f2f> in both 6g and 8g on linux 6nm prints: (with changed offset):
21:25 < f2f> 8058166 T os.(*File).Read
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21:26 < f2f> and in gdb i can do:
21:26 < f2f> (gdb) b os.(*File).Read
21:26 < f2f> Breakpoint 1 at 0x8058166: file
/home/andrey/go/src/pkg/os/file.go, line 64.
21:26 < f2f> could this be a versioning issue?
21:26 < wobsite> maybe it's been changed since I updated.
21:26 < f2f> i.e., you're running an earlier go revision?
21:26 < wobsite> yeah, perhaps.  I'll try that.
21:27 < f2f> -V will tell you what you're at
21:27 < f2f> 6g -V
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21:27 < wobsite> weekly 2011-07-19
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21:28 < wobsite> there are some updates.  I'll try those.
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21:31 < f2f> just to confirm, i'm seeing the same for the private read too:
21:31 < f2f> os.(*File).read
21:31 < wobsite> updating did the trick.  it's all periods now.
21:32 < wobsite> thanks.
21:33 < f2f> i didn't do much :)
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22:09 < f2f> oh, eric, now you tell us!
https://twitter.com/#!/ibm_ericvh/status/103547803837534209
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22:30 <@adg> hello!
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22:32 < chilts> morning :)
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22:34 < czapkofan> hi; anybody knows if the hg hocus-pocus for submitting
CLs works on Windows?
22:37 < f2f> adg, would you mind putting a ban on Stiletto?  it's been
joining and timeouting for three days straight.  somebody implemented autojoin on
their bot, but didn't bother implementing the PONG reply :)
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22:38 <@adg> f2f: i have joins/parts/quits ignore on #go-nuts so i didn't
see it
22:38 <@adg> :)
22:39 < chilts> I noticed the other day so asked if someone could kick, but
ban seems to be best
22:39 < chilts> it's every 5 mins exactly :)
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22:41 < f2f> thanks
22:42 < niemeyer> adg!
22:43 < chilts> niemeyer: thanks for your encouraging email ...  I'll be
having another hack on things tonight and at the weekend :)
22:43 < niemeyer> chilts: You're welcome, and that's awesome..  please let
me know how it goes
22:44 < chilts> heh, that patch was pretty small :) though I had the
learning curve of bzr and Launchpad first
22:44 < niemeyer> chilts: Exactly..  we've done similar things with people
joining the team before
22:45 < niemeyer> chilts: Ask them to do a very trivial change, some times a
one-liner, so they can focus on the process instead
22:45 < chilts> in other news, I've just created a Go User Group in
Wellington, NZ :) our first meeting is next month
22:45 < niemeyer> chilts: Oh, sweet
22:45 < chilts> niemeyer: yeah, that's what I figured ...  I'm pretty good
at Git, so I just need to adjust my terminology and command usages :)
22:45 < niemeyer> avelino has been working on a pt_BR mailing list too
22:46 < chilts> sweet
22:46 < niemeyer> Hopefully that'll spawn a group of people interested
22:46 < niemeyer> chilts: I use git, hg, and bzr pretty much the whole
time..  at first I was concerned I'd get some brain damage, but I'm still ok so
far
22:47 < chilts> lol
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22:47 < chilts> yeah, I can no longer type "C-rpu" to get "git push origin
master" back, since it sometimes brings up "bzr push"!
22:47 < chilts> my finger memory will also have to adjust
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22:52 < niemeyer> chilts: Yeah, can't deny I type commands in the wrong
place sometimes
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22:54 < cbeck> Speaking of user groups, is anyone in Portland, OR?
22:55 < niemeyer> cbeck: I've been there a couple of years ago and there was
a lot of people there..
22:55 < niemeyer> cbeck: Sorry..  bad programmer-brained joke..
22:55 < schmichael> cbeck: heyo
22:56 < niemeyer> Portland is awesome..  only time I snowboarded in my
life..
22:56 < niemeyer> adg: reminded of it when I saw your post yesterday..
22:58 < schmichael> niemeyer: if you ever make it back, let me know.  i'm
sure the python user group would love to buy you a drink for dateutil if nothing
else :)
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23:02 <@adg> niemeyer: :)
23:02 <@adg> i could be skiing today but i decided to work instead
23:02 <@adg> oh well
23:02 < niemeyer> schmichael: Thanks a lot :)
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--- Log closed Thu Aug 18 00:00:20 2011