--- Log opened Sat Aug 27 00:00:21 2011
--- Day changed Sat Aug 27 2011
00:00 < mpl> hmm the new templates are sweet :)
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00:48 < f2f> variadic templates?  :p
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00:53 < mpl> f2f: I meant the new template package, as opposed to the now
old/template package :)
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01:08 < brandini> haha, rob pike on letterman!
01:08 < cbeck> Seriously?
01:09 < brandini> Yup
01:09 < brandini> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4iVAcYyWN0
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01:20 < ericvh> that makes me happy.  heard about it, but never saw it
before
01:21 < brandini> :)
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01:32 < vsmatck> haha, that's cool!
01:33 < vsmatck> Penn and Teller are alright.  I didn't like their Bullshit
stuff so much.  They at times would get the right answer for the wrong reason.
(may know what I'm talking about if you watched it).
01:35 < f2f> when they stick to tricks they're quite fun to watch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZ2ebs9F1ek#t=2m56s
01:35 < vsmatck> That new show they do is awesome.  I was totally shocked
when they sawed that lady in half.
01:36 < brandini> apparently that wasn't rob's only appearance
01:36 < vsmatck> People don't like homosexuals.  It's amusing to consciously
think about the assumptions underlying some humor.
01:37 < vsmatck> "brokeback kings"
01:38 < vsmatck> I'm going a bit OT. Sorry about that.
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02:00 < brandini> I really like this presentation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kj5ApnhPAE
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02:15 < vsmatck> I like thinking in terms of power/complexity ratio.  I
guess it's "a think should be as simple as possible, and no simpler".  Backwards
compatibility is a bitch though.
02:15 < vsmatck> s/think/thing
02:17 < vsmatck> COBOL is still alive and well.  Important software is
written in it.  It's good to know about new options when choosing a language for a
new project I suppose.  Seems like learning involves failing.  I do like the C++
standards committee policy of not including features without a working
implementation.
02:18 < vsmatck>
http://channel9.msdn.com/posts/Scott-Meyers-Andrei-Alexandrescu-and-Herb-Sutter-C-and-Beyond
02:19 < Ginto8> COBOL is still alive in the sense that a stuffed squirrel is
alive and well.  It can still look nice and alive, but it doesn't act like it
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02:20 < vsmatck> Vague analogy.  I work for a company that depends upon
COBOL in a serious way.
02:21 < Ginto8> legacy code?
02:23 < vsmatck> No.
02:23 < Ginto8> o.o really?
02:24 < vsmatck> "legacy code" is vague.  By most commonly accepted
definitions it wouldn't be considered that.
02:25 < brandini> if you depend on COBOL to do your business you've built a
broken model
02:25 < Ginto8> so why are you using COBOL?
02:25 < brandini> you should *NEVER* be dependent on any part of your tech
to do your business
02:25 < brandini> language, hardware, etc
02:25 < brandini> they all change
02:26 < vsmatck> Not if you're a IBM customer.  Not as long as you got
money.  :)
02:26 < brandini> oh pfffft
02:26 < brandini> ibm is no different than sun or intel or anybody
02:27 < brandini> it'll all change
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02:28 < vsmatck> No, it won't.
02:29 < Ginto8> it's tough to change a monolith like ibm
02:29 < brandini> I just left an industry that had all their mainframes, and
software and processes set in stone and is going to lose millions of dollars of
business because they can't change their tech
02:30 < brandini> guess what, an industry that changes slowly, almost not at
all turned drastically...  now they're eff'd
02:31 < Ginto8> technology is moving at an astounding rate
02:31 < str1ngs> we dont care as long as they use go in the process :P
02:31 < vsmatck> I agree with this.  American manufacturing is dying out.
Industrial programming is archaic.
02:32 < brandini> even ibm isn't immune to this type of change
02:32 < Ginto8> let's put it this way: a COBOL business is an out-dated
business
02:33 < brandini> a Go business is following a broken model too ;)
02:33 < Ginto8> hm?
02:34 < brandini> What if a new thing comes along and it would make you 100%
more efficient and you can't change?
02:34 < vsmatck> There aren't really any jobs for Go programmers yet.
02:35 < brandini> there aren't really any jobs for cobol anymore ;)
02:35 < brandini> or DB/C
02:35 < vsmatck> Yes..  There are.
02:35 < str1ngs> no jobs for C really?
02:35 < Ginto8> str1ngs, wrong
02:35 < vsmatck> You can make 85,000k a year as a COBOL programmer for my
local city government.  I know a few local businesses which depend upon it too.
02:35 < Ginto8> I know someone who is doing embedded C programming
02:35 < brandini> people don't hire by language as much
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02:36 < str1ngs> Ginto8: I'm sure thats what I ment if you read what I said.
02:36 < vsmatck> Yes.  They do..  Why am I disagreeing with everything you
say...
02:36 < brandini> cause you need more beer?
02:36 < vsmatck> I didn't mention I was intoxicated did I? I can't remember.
02:36 < Ginto8> str1ngs, I don't see how "no jobs for C really" means
"embedded programming jobs usually involve C"
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02:37 < vsmatck> If you're writing firmware more than half the time it's C.
PLC programming is not typically C.
02:38 < str1ngs> Ginto8: brandini implied there were no jobs for C. I said
really?
02:38 < brandini> I didn't say C
02:38 < brandini> I said DB/C :)
02:38 < Ginto8> str1ngs, ah, context confusion, sorry
02:38 < vsmatck> C sure does suck less than COBOL.  Can I get a amen?
02:38 < str1ngs> Ginto8: thats fine
02:39 < brandini> said, if COBOL is alive and well why does it suck?
02:39 < Ginto8> vsmatck, amen!
02:39 < vsmatck> "suck" is vague.  I'll define it as "there are better tools
to do the same thing now".
02:39 < vsmatck> I guess something can suck and still be the right tool for
the job.
02:40 < cbeck> See: perl
02:40 < vsmatck> I mean if you got large program written in the language.
02:40 < brandini> sounds more like "legacy"
02:40 < vsmatck> cbeck: :)
02:40 < Ginto8> it can be the right tool for maintainence
02:40 < cbeck> (I use perl a lot)
02:41 < brandini> me and perl are broke up
02:41 < Ginto8> I've never used perl
02:41 < vsmatck> heh.  I like the relationship analogy.
02:43 < brandini> vsmatck: this isn't a disagreement, but rather a comment
02:43 < brandini> I see people saying "tool for the job" stuff too often to
justify a crappy tool :)
02:43 * brandini thinks of .NET
02:43 < brandini> "but for small simple things like what we do.."
02:44 < brandini> yes, if it's small and simple lets make it complex and
painful with ZERO benefit
02:44 < vsmatck> I like the "idea" of .NET.  I'm aware of some issues
involved with having high level languages having to speak the same intermediate
langauge though.
02:44 < brandini> have you used it?
02:44 < vsmatck> But I do like the idea of near seamless mising of different
languages.
02:45 < vsmatck> Yeah.  I do some ASP.NET for my work.
02:45 < vsmatck> With C#.
02:45 < brandini> ok
02:46 < vsmatck> I'd say it's pretty seamless in that you go to the docs and
it tells you how to call a .NET function in 3 languages.  And you don't care what
language the function was originally written in.
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02:46 < brandini> I really don't have anything against C# as a language, but
I'm over it all because IIS, .NET and everything else around it is so rediculous
to make it do something sane
02:46 < brandini> do an async call over a socket (properly) and it takes 5
threads and 150 lines of wrapper to do
02:47 < brandini> unless you want to do one of the 3 base cases they thought
of ;)
02:47 < vsmatck> Who knew sophistication would have brought such noise.  :)
02:47 < brandini> hehe
02:47 < vsmatck> Oops.  Forgot the quotes.  heh
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02:50 < vsmatck> I was reading about argumentation recently.  To have it in
a community increases the quality of arguments.  If you don't have to reconcile
what you think with what others are saying your justifications remain simple.
02:51 < vsmatck> There really is a pop-culture of programming (idea from
alan kay).  Lots of fads.  Bad ideas which get passed on but never critically
evaluated.
02:52 < brandini> I keep my arguement simple, I don't like one thing because
it sucks, so I found something else that sucks less because everything I do for
$income is a solved problem ;)
02:52 < vsmatck> Anyone else think Go was influenced by how C++ is used at
google?  Anyone else read the google C++ coding standards?
02:53 < vsmatck> brandini: We are the same.  You and I. :)
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02:55 < brandini> :)
02:56 < Ginto8> vsmatck, I haven't read the coding standards, but I would
not be surprised if their use of C++ influenced its design
02:56 < brandini> I should probably actually write some go code
02:58 < Ginto8> I'm still going back and forth with myself about whether or
not I want to use it for my library
02:58 < Ginto8> although I should probably wait until it's matured more
02:59 < brandini> 2 years later and it's mature
02:59 < brandini> 10 years later and it's outdated ;)
02:59 < Ginto8> I just want more consistency across the platforms
03:00 < Ginto8> I absolutely love a lot of the ideas of go
03:00 < Ginto8> I like some of the more recent additions
03:01 < Ginto8> but until gc is ported to other platforms, go's big pull
(fast subthread concurrency), isn't going to be solid
03:04 < str1ngs> what other platforms?
03:05 < str1ngs> because as it stand right now gc support quite a few
arch/OS's granted some are farther along then others.  but the major ones are
there.
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03:06 < Ginto8> gc meaning the go compiler (based on plan 9), not garbage
collection :P
03:06 < str1ngs> I know what gc means
03:06 < Ginto8> ...
03:06 < Ginto8> why have I not known about this
03:07 < str1ngs> I'm asking what platforms are missing that you need?
03:07 < str1ngs> also its quite trivial to cross build across these
platforms
03:07 < Ginto8> windows
03:07 < str1ngs> windows is supported, I hear the port has come along quite
well
03:07 < Ginto8> hmm
03:08 < Ginto8> I'm teetering on the edge, but I'm not sure about taking the
plunge :P
03:09 < str1ngs> well I'm not going to convince you either way.  just
stating that maybe gc supports more platforms then you think.
03:09 < |Craig|> mac support is very good currently
03:09 < Ginto8> which is great
03:09 < Ginto8> speaking of mac
03:09 < Ginto8> I have a question
03:09 < Ginto8> is X11 available to programs on the system by default?
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03:10 < str1ngs> you need into install X11 support.  after that yes for the
most part
03:10 < str1ngs> personally I dont like it though, just easier to use linux
for me.
03:10 < |Craig|> my X11 install is broken and I couldn't get a reinstall to
work.  Linux virtual machine works better anyway usally
03:11 < Ginto8> so I'd have to use cocoa to interface with C to interface
with Go...
03:11 < Ginto8> great
03:11 < Ginto8> or rather
03:11 < str1ngs> does gtk for OSX only use X11?
03:11 < Ginto8> use C to create an interface to obj-C cocoa, then use cgo on
it
03:12 < brandini> even openbsd is supported :)
03:12 < brandini> and I saw work today for i386 as well
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03:13 < brandini> I've built and run stuff with 6g
03:13 < str1ngs> Ginto8: if you want to make cocoa interfaces, yes I see no
other way but to use cgo
03:13 < str1ngs> unless some go binding already exists for it.
03:14 < Ginto8> str1ngs, what I want is an OpenGL window, using the native
system libraries
03:14 < Ginto8> which means for mac cocoa is probably the way to go
03:14 < str1ngs> there are go opengl bindings already, not sure if that
interfaces with cocoa as well as you might light.  but something worth checking I
guess.
03:14 < str1ngs> might like*
03:15 < Ginto8> it'll work fine
03:15 < Ginto8> I looked at the OpenGL bindings and they're almost a direct
bind to C
03:15 < Ginto8> which means it'll work
03:15 < brandini> 23:16 and I just brewed a fresh pot of coffee for a late
night coding session!
03:15 < Ginto8> brandini, you're on the east coast too?
03:16 < brandini> Yup
03:16 < brandini> CLE
03:16 < Ginto8> hm?
03:17 < brandini> cleveland ohio
03:17 < Ginto8> ah
03:17 < brandini> I was giving the airport reference
03:17 < Ginto8> ohh ok
03:17 < Ginto8> I'm in southern NJ
03:17 < Ginto8> and I should be fairly prepared when the 100mph winds hit :P
03:17 < brandini> in the hood?
03:17 < Ginto8> no, that's camden
03:18 < brandini> our main datacenter in NY is supposed to be right in the
path
03:18 < Ginto8> ouch
03:18 < brandini> and they *ALWAYS* lose power...  I hate to think what's
going to happen in a hurricane
03:20 < brandini> XAND is the name of the facility
03:20 < Ginto8> let's make up a nonsensical logic gate!
03:21 < brandini> :)
03:21 < brandini> they really aren't that great
03:26 < brandini> so I was looking at this FW-7535 by Lanner...  it's an
atom based firewall type thing that I want to use for my webserver...  but it's
550 bucks?!?!
03:26 < brandini> I may as well buy a couple chrome books and then I have a
monitor and keyboard to manage them too!
03:26 < brandini> for less!
03:27 < Ginto8> well
03:27 < Ginto8> you can buy one chromebook
03:27 < Ginto8> and hack it to act as a good firewall
03:27 < brandini> I was going to get a couple
03:27 < Ginto8> so what's an "atom based firewall"?
03:27 < brandini> wait, the 7535 was 590 bucks
03:27 < brandini> atom processor with a lot of gigabit nic's
03:28 < Ginto8> nic?
03:28 < Ginto8> :P
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03:29 < brandini> 1 x Intel 82574L, 5 x Intel 82583V
03:30 < brandini> so not terrible chips
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03:50 < str1ngs> get one of these when they come out.
http://www.raspberrypi.org/ 35$
03:55 < Ginto8> that looks cool...  I just don't know what I'd do with it
03:55 < cbeck> Heh.  Someone is using my irc library.  Somehow I didn't
expect that.
03:58 < str1ngs> nice
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04:14 < crazy2be> grooveshark is so awesome
04:14 < crazy2be> I still don't understand how it's legal
04:14 < Ginto8> that it is
04:14 < crazy2be> my friend just showed it to me
04:15 < Ginto8> black magic?
04:15 < crazy2be> lol
04:15 < crazy2be> probably
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04:38 < Ginto8> you can override methods of an anonymous field right?
04:39 < Ginto8> ie.  type Y int; func (y Y) blarg() {}; type X struct { Y;
}; func (x X) blarg() {}
04:40 < Ginto8> then var x X; x.blarg() would call X.blarg
04:40 < cbeck> yes
04:53 < KirkMcDonald> But if Y has another method which calls its own
blarg() method, it will call Y.blarg().
04:53 < KirkMcDonald> (Since Y will have the Y object.)
04:53 < Ginto8> ok thanks
04:54 < Ginto8> I probably asked this already, but to what extent is gc on
windows working?
04:57 < Ginto8> well according to "tests that windows cannot run yet" in the
makefile, most but os signals and syslogs
04:57 < Ginto8> very nice
05:02 < s|k> I can't do this?  http://goo.gl/g2fCf
05:03 < Ginto8> it should be {1,2,3}
05:03 < s|k> var wtf = [1,2,3] in package scope?
05:03 < Ginto8> or not
05:03 < s|k> no
05:04 < s|k> var wtf = 1 or var wtf = "moo" doesn't cause any problems
05:04 < Ginto8> well http://goo.gl/g2fCf works
05:04 < s|k> no
05:04 < s|k> it doesn't
05:04 < s|k> :|
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05:04 < Ginto8> oh sorry
05:04 < s|k> that's the same URL I gave you
05:04 < Ginto8> it didn't make a new paste >.<
05:05 < s|k> nope you have to go to
05:05 < s|k> http://golang.org/doc/playground.html
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05:05 < Ginto8> http://goo.gl/QL3iL
05:05 < Ginto8> there we go
05:06 < Ginto8> not exactly the same thing though
05:06 < Ginto8> I think you might actually have a bug there
05:08 < s|k>
http://groups.google.com/group/golang-nuts/browse_thread/thread/23e30017277bf216/583e18a401b7a053?lnk=gst&q=array+declaration#583e18a401b7a053
05:08 < s|k> I guess I'm just doing it wrong
05:11 < s|k> Don't know why I thought square brackets were legal in Go
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06:40 < s|k> there's no package that performs array merges?
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06:42 < s|k> I could use copy I guess
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06:53 < str1ngs> odds are you want to be using slices
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06:56 < dmg> I have a question about sharing code among sub-types.
06:57 < dmg> I've implemented some string hashes and they share a lot of
code.  Normally I'd put this in a base class and then inherit to specialize for
the particular differences, but Go doesn't really have polymorphism like that.
06:58 < remy_o> why not interfaces ?
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07:12 < dmg> remy_o: I think that's basically what I ended up doing, but I'm
not sure if what I've done is TheRightWay(tm)
07:12 < dmg> https://github.com/dgryski/dgohash/blob/master/stringhashes.go
07:13 < dmg> I only had to repeat the code for Jenkins' Sum() because
calling Sum32() from StringHashes.Sum() would call the StringHashes version of
Sum32() and not the Jenkins one.
07:15 < dmg> (I still need to add docs etc.  before I put this and my Bloom
Filter code on godashboard)
07:15 < crazy2be> night all, it's 1:15 here and I have to get up at 5
tomorrow to catch a flight *yawn*
07:15 < remy_o> dmg: i don't understand your code
07:15 < dmg> remy_o: hrm, not a good sign :(
07:16 < dmg> too much java influence then probably...
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07:16 < dmg> remy_o: These 'classes' all implement the hash.Hash32 interface
07:17 < dmg> so I made a 'base class' called StringHash32 that contains all
the common code
07:17 < remy_o> oh
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07:19 < dmg> remy_o: So, for JavaStringHash32, everything in StringHash32 is
good, we just need to implement Write which is the actual hash function.
07:19 < dmg> For Djb2StringHash, I need to do Write and Reset(), (since h
needs to be reset to 5381 and not 0)
07:19 < dmg> etc.
07:19 < remy_o> so (sh *JenkinsStringHash32) Sum() is superfluous
07:20 < dmg> remy_o: well, no.
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07:20 < remy_o> why ?
07:20 < dmg> because if I call Sum(), on the Jenkins hash object, it calls
the StringHash32 version of Sum32 and not the Jenkins one.
07:20 < dmg> At least I'm pretty sure that's what happened in my test case.
07:22 < remy_o> okay
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09:19 < gobeginner> Is there a predefined public constant for the maximum
value for int64?  The spec clearly says what that the value is 9223372036854775807
but I'd rather not add a const to my package if one already exists.
09:19 < aiju> yes
09:19 < aiju> math.MAXINT or something along that
09:19 < gobeginner> Thanks, I'll go hunting
09:20 < aiju> math.MaxInt64
09:20 < aiju> that's it
09:20 < gobeginner> cheers
09:20 * aiju has never been afraid to write (1<<63)-1
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10:35 < moraes> go'od morning.
10:35 < moraes> lets start some flame warz.
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10:58 < uriel> moraes: yay, make it burn!
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11:02 < str1ngs> hmm log.Exitf what did that get removed or renamed, I
forget
11:07 < str1ngs> log: rename Exit* to Fatal*
11:07 < str1ngs> seems I'm better with hg then I thought
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12:21 < moraes> uriel, ping!
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12:32 < uriel> moraes: yes?  (I'm not completely awake/online but should be
more alive than in recent times)
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12:38 < moraes> uriel, i'll send an email to the list
12:38 < moraes> hopefully brad will answer!
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12:40 < moraes> uriel, this one!
http://groups.google.com/group/golang-nuts/browse_thread/thread/77f8f56ffdd970f9
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12:56 < uriel> moraes: hmmmm..  only taken a look, but I'm not completley
sure what is this stuff used for
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12:57 < moraes> uriel, like thread locals in python.
12:57 < uriel> moraes: you know that my approach and requirements for web
app design are extremely spartan
12:57 < moraes> not really.  the idea is to set a map[request]sometype, to
store variables and access it from a handler.
12:57 < uriel> I don't know what are 'thread locals' in python :)
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12:58 < moraes> concept is simple as that ^
12:58 < uriel> but who stores stuff there?
12:58 < moraes> a library
12:58 < uriel> which lib?  and why?  and who calls it?
12:59 < moraes> for example, mux stores matched route variables, when they
match
12:59 < moraes> so you access them with mux.Vars(request)
12:59 < uriel> yea, but the mux could pass that directly to the handler, no?
12:59 < moraes> no
13:00 < moraes> because of what brad explains there
13:00 < moraes> i don't want to change handler signature just because my lib
wants
13:00 < uriel> you mean because you want to remain compatible with the
stdlib's http package, right?
13:00 < moraes> yes
13:00 < moraes> general idea is yes.  one can come and use it for other
handler signatures
13:01 < moraes> but default won't invent a new signature
13:02 < moraes> so brad's idea is to set context maps that you retrieve
passing request
13:02 < uriel> ok, I'm starting to see a point, still I'm sure there must be
more use cases, or you could just add an inferface{} at the end of the handler or
whatever
13:02 < moraes> i have another use case for sessions
13:02 < moraes> need another context
13:03 < uriel> aha
13:03 < moraes> then i thought 'damn.  now i need to add another context to
be cleared for the request'
13:03 * uriel hates sessions, and avoids them like the plague, since wasting
almost a month tracking down a session data corruption bug back in 1998
13:03 < moraes> so i was thinking about having a 'context stack'
13:04 < moraes> uriel, you'll love my session
13:04 < moraes> you'll order a t-shirt 'i used to hate sessions.  boy i was
wrong.'
13:05 < uriel> heh
13:05 < uriel> amount of data stores in a session should be very small, in
which case you can just put the stuff in a cookie
13:05 < uriel> s/stores/stored/
13:05 < moraes> secure cookies is default.
13:05 < uriel> yay, I like that!
13:05 < moraes> and there's a interface for other backends.
13:06 < moraes> anyway
13:06 < uriel> all that is needed is a convenient and very simple api to
store an encrypted/signed cookie with a tiny (compressed) string->string map
13:06 < moraes> i don't know very well what mutex does
13:06 < uriel> (or json at most)
13:07 < uriel> I'm still wondering
13:07 < uriel> all this stuff seems closely tied to a request
13:07 < uriel> why do you need multi-threaded access at all?
13:07 < moraes> because brad said!
13:07 < uriel> (I see brads argument, but still the whole thing seems so
margina/specialized...)
13:08 < moraes> i'm not sure really
13:09 < uriel> brad (and you) are way smarter than me, but I 'm not
convinced by the arguments, to expect a single goroutine to handle the request
seems reasonable to me, if it wants to hand over some sub-tasts to other
goroutines, that is fine, just instead of passing down the whole req, it can
explicitly pass whatever values the sub-task requires
13:09 < moraes> is there json in std pkg?
13:09 < uriel> yes
13:09 < uriel> json/
13:10 < uriel> but don't put json in a cookie, it is way overkill IMHO
13:10 < moraes> still not sure what to use to serialize
13:10 < uriel> string->string
13:10 < moraes> what do you mean?
13:11 < uriel> just serialize a map of [string]string
13:11 < uriel> as for the format, you could use gobs, or you could just use
the standard string representaiton of such a map
13:11 < uriel> (er., literal representation)
13:11 < moraes> gobs!
13:11 < moraes> is that like pickle?  :P
13:11 < uriel> gobs are probalby overkill
13:11 < uriel> kind of
13:12 < uriel> also kind of like pb
13:12 < moraes> hm, interesting
13:13 < moraes> will have to explore these options
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13:14 < uriel> http://blog.golang.org/2011/03/gobs-of-data.html
13:20 < moraes> uriel, now ask yourself why anyone would design Go the way
they did, and what kind of sick and twisted mind you would have to have to
actually use it.
13:20 < moraes> lol!
13:20 < moraes> its a quote from a forum.
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13:33 < uriel> moraes: yea, some people REALLY love Go, specially people who
have never used it
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13:33 < moraes> hehe
13:33 < uriel> must be because their minds are not twisted at all
13:33 < uriel> they are completely plain, flat as a flat line
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14:28 < Mic92> Are the files located in /usr/lib/go/pkg/linux_386/ ELF
files?
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14:31 < str1ngs> Mic92: generally they are ar format
14:32 < nsf> and objects inside ar are not ELFs
14:32 < str1ngs> correct
14:33 < str1ngs> however with gccgo object files could possible elf.
probably does not apply here though
14:34 < Mic92> Ok. This was the first time I heard about ar.
14:35 < str1ngs> deb packages use ar
14:35 < niemeyer> Mic92: It's been around for a couple of years :-)
14:35 < niemeyer> Mic92: I'm being ironic, btw..  this is a very old format
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14:36 < niemeyer> Mic92: Every static library (.a) is an ar, for instance
14:37 < Mic92> niemeyer: I saw several times these files ending with .a, but
never wonder what they are useful for.
14:37 < aiju> Mic92: libraries
14:37 < aiju> ar is *very* old
14:38 < aiju> ar is older than tar
14:38 < niemeyer> Mic92: A .a is a set of object files that can be used to
build a binary statically
14:39 < Mic92> Does it support a form of a checksum?
14:39 < str1ngs> os.gox: ELF 64-bit LSB relocatable, x86-64, version 1
(SYSV), not stripped gccgo
14:41 < str1ngs> Mic92: so to be real technical in the gc implementation of
go they are ar format.  in the gccgo implementation they are elf.
14:41 < aiju> the ar archive contain normal object files
14:41 < aiju> str1ngs: no
14:42 < aiju> .a files are always ar
14:42 < str1ngs> depending on OS of course.
14:42 < aiju> gc uses the Plan 9 object file format
14:42 < aiju> and gccgo ELF
14:42 < aiju> for the file inside them
14:44 < Mic92> Thanks.  This helps me a little bit.
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14:56 < Mic92> Actually it is currently a little bit hard to program go,
because the third party libraries break often this time.
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14:59 < str1ngs> it might be easier if you explain the current problem you
are having.
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15:02 < str1ngs> I suspect though based on your line of questioning you
could have an issue with your go installation.
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15:04 < Mic92> str1ngs: No thanks, everything is fine now.  I just packaged
some libraries for a linux distribution.  Therefore I wanted to know of what a
common go package exist of.
15:05 < str1ngs> you can use goinstall to mimic DESTDIR.  which make
packaging easier
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15:09 < Mic92> str1ngs: GOROOT=${pkgdir}/${GOROOT} gomake install
15:09 < Mic92> goinstall seems cleaner.
15:10 < str1ngs> what distro are you using if you dont mind me asking
15:10 < Mic92> archlinux.
15:11 < str1ngs> in that case I would not use go from community . I would
use go-hg from aur
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15:11 < str1ngs> go-hg from community will allow you to install 3rd party
packages directly with goinstall
15:12 < str1ngs> err aur*
15:14 < str1ngs> however with some tweaking you can use go from community
along with GOPATH
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15:15 < Mic92> goinstall is included in the normal go package to.
15:15 < Mic92> yaourt -Ql go | grep goinstall
15:15 < Mic92> go /usr/bin/goinstall
15:15 < str1ngs> yes but, you need to be root and it installs to /usr/lib/go
15:16 < Mic92> And the new one introduce DESTDIR?
15:16 < str1ngs> its not DESTDIR but works like that
15:16 < str1ngs> see godoc goinstall
15:17 < str1ngs> I'm not sure what version community is . it could have
GOPATH support you'll have to check with godoc
15:21 < Mic92> It seems to.
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15:26 < Mic92> str1ngs: This is the way I currently do it:
https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/go/go-pkg-mpd-git/PKGBUILD
15:29 < str1ngs> much easier just to use make.  if the project has a
Makefile
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15:31 < Mic92> Is has a Makefile and I already use it.
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15:32 < str1ngs> cp -Rv ${srcdir}/${_gitname}/*
"${pkgdir}/${GOROOT}/src/pkg/${_goname}" yes but all this is hackish
15:33 < str1ngs> you could simply run make then use install to install
go/pkg/linux_amd64/github.com/jteeuwen/go-pkg-mpd.a
15:33 < str1ngs> like you do with LICENSE
15:34 < Mic92> Ok. I will fix that.
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15:35 < str1ngs> you might have to add a case for ARCH
15:37 < Mic92> str1ngs: the line, where I used cp, is only for platform
independent source code.  Or do you mean, I should use install for the ar file
too?
15:38 < str1ngs> as far as I know all you need is the ar file
15:38 < str1ngs> I could be wrong here.  test it.
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15:40 < str1ngs> hehe I'll us my go aur helper to download and hack on this.
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15:42 < str1ngs> Mic92: what arch are you useing x86_64 or i686?
15:42 < Mic92> i686
15:43 < Mic92> But can test both.
15:43 < str1ngs> ah good.  I'll add a case if you can test it
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15:50 < vegai> 18:12 <str1ngs> in that case I would not use go from
community . I would use go-hg from aur
15:50 < vegai> something wrong with the package?
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15:52 < vegai> I'm pretty sure goinstall was working the last time I tried
it
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15:54 < vegai> and still works.
15:54 < str1ngs> for over a year godoc did not work.  finally a patch I
submitted fixed it.  but there are more issues with it.  like left over object
files
15:54 < vegai> (just remember to source p/etc/profile)
15:54 < vegai> yeah, that was a bit unfortunate
15:54 < vegai> letf over object files?
15:55 < str1ngs> yes I found a better way to clean the object files then
what is currently in place
15:55 < vegai> I admit, I haven't had time to look at my bugs for a long
time
15:56 < vegai> what's wrong with the current method?
15:56 < str1ngs> its not accurate I'm sure there are object files still left
over in the src tree
15:56 < str1ngs> to get around it I use hg clean
15:56 < str1ngs> which is not in the current PKGBUILD it uses fine -exec
15:57 < str1ngs> find*
15:57 < vegai> I'm looking at the PKGBUILD and there's no find at all
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15:57 < str1ngs> can you give me the link save me have to hunt it down
please.
15:58 < str1ngs> /usr/lib/go/src/lib9/argv0.o
15:58 < str1ngs> ya see what I mean?
15:58 < vegai> what's the problem?
15:58 < str1ngs> that object file should not be there
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15:59 < vegai> only lib9.a, you mean?
15:59 < vegai> it hardly matters, though, does it?
15:59 < str1ngs> no there should be no object files in /usr/lib/go/src
15:59 < str1ngs> is only purpose is for godoc
15:59 < vegai> ah, ok.
15:59 < str1ngs> 23M/usr/lib/go/src/
16:00 < str1ngs> I would say yes it matters
16:00 < vegai> do you have a patch somewhere that fixes these?
16:00 < vegai> or does the AUR package do it correctly
16:00 < str1ngs> so easy way is to run hg clean on the src tree before you
cp -a or w/e is used
16:00 < vegai> that would require the purge extension
16:01 < str1ngs> naw I have a trick one sed
16:01 < str1ngs> sec*
16:01 < str1ngs> hg --config extensions.purge= purge . --all
16:02 < str1ngs> the other option is to install the src from none build dir.
I'd have to see the PKGBUILD though
16:04 < str1ngs> vegai: also IMO go is not FHS friendly I think the /opt/go
approach might be alot better
16:04 < vegai> the purge seems to be a bit nasty solution, since it removes
all generated files, right?
16:05 < vegai> yeah, I've pondered about that too, but am a bit undecided on
that
16:05 < str1ngs> can you link the PKGBUILD?
16:05 < str1ngs> until goinstall is solid /opt/go is way better
16:06 < str1ngs> grr I'll use abs
16:07 < vegai> yeah, I couldn't find the link to the pkgbuild
16:07 < vegai> not sure if there is one
16:07 < vegai> websvn seems to have been taken away at some point..
16:08 < str1ngs> I'm using abs
16:08 < vegai> I think I'll just find -name '*.o' -delete on those
16:09 < str1ngs> that wont be enough
16:09 < vegai> *.[ao]
16:09 < str1ngs> cp -r $GOROOT/src/pkg $pkgdir/usr/lib/go/src IMO just cp
from the non build dir
16:09 < str1ngs> anyways either works
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16:10 * vegai gives it a shot
16:11 < vegai> I wonder if there's something else
16:11 < str1ngs> find * -type f ! -executable -print0 | xargs -0 -I {}
install -Dm644 {} $pkgdir/opt/go/{}
16:11 < str1ngs> aur is not much better :P
16:11 < vegai> oy...
16:12 < str1ngs> actually I think there like 2 in aur hard to keep track
16:12 < vegai> that's why I added the community package :P
16:12 < vegai> so that people wouldn't have to think too much about which to
use
16:12 < vegai> that of course doesn't work if the community package sucks
16:12 < str1ngs> IMO use /opt/go
16:13 < str1ngs> and then talk to the aur guys and have them use the same
PKGBUILD but instead of release do weekly
16:13 < str1ngs> this way everyone is kinda on the same page.
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16:13 < vegai> it's practically impossible to reign the AUR hordes :)
16:13 < str1ngs> they could have a tip also
16:14 < str1ngs> I could go on a whole rant, about all of this
16:14 < vegai> I would think that people who wanna use weekly / tip are
upkeeping their personal hg repos anyway
16:14 < str1ngs> but I'll be nice
16:14 < vegai> you're full of hate because of rather trivial things, that's
not healthy :P
16:14 < str1ngs> this is just one issue.
16:15 < vegai> so I wonder why I have only one bug reported against go
16:16 < str1ngs> I gave up doing bug reports
16:16 < s|k> importing from github seems weird, how do you manage versioning
that way?
16:16 < str1ngs> vegai: not exactly go related so dont sweat it :P
16:17 < vegai> ok :)
16:17 < vegai> I'm afraid removing those object libs is not gonna save
anybody any money on their harddrives
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16:17 < vegai> 17072180 vs 17044116 bytes
16:17 < vegai> unpacked will be a bit larger, of course
16:18 < vegai> but I added that anyway.  The next release should be free of
them
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16:18 < str1ngs> well there was a go bug where there was 3meg binary in the
src tree.  not sure if you are effected by it..  let me check
16:18 < vegai> oh, there's remy_o :)
16:19 < vegai> he's like spiderman
16:19 < str1ngs> $ du -h /usr/lib/go/src/pkg/exp/eval/eval
16:19 < str1ngs> 3.4M/usr/lib/go/src/pkg/exp/eval/eval
16:19 < str1ngs> yes your effected by it
16:19 < str1ngs> so you'll probably want to clean that
16:20 < str1ngs> until next release anyways.
16:20 < remy_o> vegai: hey
16:20 < vegai> remy_o: str1ngs hates us :P
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16:20 < str1ngs> on the contrary
16:21 < vegai> str1ngs: all of those are source files.  Aren't they supposed
to be there?
16:21 < str1ngs> no there object files they are not needed.  the src dir is
only used for godoc
16:21 < str1ngs> also
16:21 < str1ngs> *~ $ file /usr/lib/go/src/pkg/exp/eval/eval
16:21 < str1ngs> /usr/lib/go/src/pkg/exp/eval/eval: Mach-O 64-bit executable
16:21 < str1ngs> so you see how that might be an issue?
16:22 < vegai> ohh, ok
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16:22 < str1ngs> thats a go bug.  but wont be fixed to next release
16:22 < vegai> I do
16:24 < str1ngs> thats why I'm thinking its better to cp the source from the
none build, or use hg purge.  so you avoid any object files at all
16:25 < str1ngs> alos there are bison generated files etc.
16:27 < str1ngs> and godoc for all cmd files dont work
16:27 < str1ngs> ie godoc goinstall
16:27 < str1ngs> sorry just found that issue
16:28 < vegai> I didn't push a release yet, so no worries
16:29 < str1ngs> http://aur.archlinux.org/packages/go/golang-hg/PKGBUILD
16:29 < str1ngs> I bet has the some issues with object files
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16:49 < s|k> is the Search function in the sort package the best way to find
an occurance in an array?
16:49 < aiju> for k, v := range array { ...
16:50 < s|k> well the Search function is faster since it works on a sorted
array
16:50 < s|k> you have to sort the array first
16:51 < s|k> wait
16:51 < s|k> n log n is slower than n :O
16:51 < aiju> hahahahahaha
16:51 < s|k> nm ;\
16:51 < aiju> sorry, but are you serious
16:51 < s|k> what?
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16:52 < s|k> a binary search is faster than just a linear search, but that
only makes sense if you already needed a sorted array
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16:55 < s|k> Well I'm doing a lot of searching in this array
16:55 < s|k> so it does make sense to sort it first
16:56 < s|k> aiju: why wouldn't I be serious?  :/
16:56 < aiju> you noticed only now that n log n is slower than n?
16:57 < s|k> aiju: no, of course not, I was just thinking about the wrong
context
16:58 < aiju> also, if you search that much, a hash map might be a good idea
16:59 < s|k> in the context of the question it looked as if I'm just doing
one search
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17:10 < Ginto8> if you have a var v []int and a func blarg(a ...  int), can
you pass v to blarg by doing blarg(v...) ?
17:10 < aiju> yes
17:10 < Ginto8> ok cool thanks
17:23 < Ginto8> what's the difference between two methods with receiver
types T and *T?  aside from the obvious :P
17:23 < aiju> what's the obvious?
17:23 < Ginto8> that one takes T and the other takes *T
17:23 < aiju> yes
17:23 < aiju> that's pretty much the only difference
17:24 < Ginto8> like, what situations would make the T one get called rather
than *T?
17:24 < aiju> note that the receiver is not passed by reference
17:24 < Ginto8> and are there any situations where one definitely won't get
called?
17:24 < aiju> so if you modify the value in a method which takes T, the
change will not be seen by the caller
17:24 < aiju> i doubt you can even define both on one type
17:25 < Ginto8> aiju, so a method that changes the receiver must take *T.
Is there any situation where the receiver must be T rather than *T?
17:25 < aiju> when you can't get a pointer
17:26 < aiju> there are cases, i can't think of a concrete example right now
17:29 < remy_o> Ginto8: if you need T to implement some interface, the
associated functions must take T as a receiver
17:29 < remy_o> usually T and *T do not implement the same interfaces
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17:30 < Ginto8> but T's method set is a subset of *T's right?
17:31 < aiju> no
17:31 < aiju> it's a super set
17:32 < remy_o> Ginto8: if T has a method then *T also has it
17:33 < cbeck> aiju: I'm pretty sure it's a subset..
17:33 < aiju> yeah right
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17:54 < s|k> :P
17:55 < Ginto8> looking at the standard, I'm not entirely sure if I'm
interpreting it right, but it seems like the method sets of T and *T are the same
as long as the var x T is addressable
17:56 < nicka> yes it does that
17:56 < s|k> yeah but you don't want to depend on that
17:56 < Ginto8> s|k, why not?
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17:57 < s|k> interfaces that require a pointer receiver wont work and as
such it will not consider your T to implement the interface
17:57 < Ginto8> hmm...
17:57 < s|k> I feel it's best to always use a pointer receiver unless there
is a performance gain to not
17:57 < Ginto8> okay that makes sense
17:57 < Ginto8> thanks
17:57 < s|k> and remember new() returns pointers to things
17:58 < s|k> you're almost always dealing with a pointer to a type
18:03 < erus`> when is there a performance gain not to?
18:03 < erus`> when using ints?
18:04 < aiju> it makes sense always to use values when you're not modifying
the value
18:04 < aiju> unless you're working on large structures
18:04 < erus`> aiju: i agree it makes sense but i dont think its faster
18:05 < aiju> it can be faster
18:05 < aiju> taking an address moves the object to the heap
18:05 < erus`> if the compiler is clever
18:05 < aiju> and mostly
18:05 < aiju> it doesn't really matter
18:06 < nicka> they're adding escape analysis to the compiler to find cases
where heap stuff can be moved onto the stack iirc
18:06 < nsf> nicka: yes
18:06 < nsf> even some of 'new' pointers will be allocated on the stack
18:06 < nsf> instead the usual heap location
18:06 < aiju> so what
18:06 < aiju> doesn't disprove my point
18:06 < nsf> yes
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18:10 < s|k> would be cool if I could do this: case _, ok := unsafeChars[i];
ok:$
18:11 < s|k> er nevermind the $
18:11 < s|k> that's my editor
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18:42 < str1ngs> niemeyer: seems gopher ppa is effected by
http://code.google.com/p/go/issues/detail?id=2058 also.  I cant figure out where
to post a bug for the ppa.  and this might be more of fyi?
18:43 < niemeyer> str1ngs: Ah, thanks
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18:43 < niemeyer> str1ngs: Indeed, should be fixed by itself soon
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18:50 < str1ngs> vegai: sorry had to step away.  anyways on of my points
about goinstall and /usr/lib is that it requires root permissions.  short of
GOPATH
18:52 < str1ngs> niemeyer: how do you guys deal with goinstall?
18:52 < niemeyer> str1ngs: You mean in terms of integrating it with
packaging?
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18:53 < str1ngs> not so much that just using it in general.
18:53 < str1ngs> imo 3rd party packing of libs is to permature, not
something to be worried about
18:53 < str1ngs> premature*
18:55 < niemeyer> str1ngs: Agreed
18:55 < niemeyer> str1ngs: We use plain goinstall pretty much
18:55 < niemeyer> str1ngs: With packages in Launchpda
18:55 < niemeyer> Launchpad
18:56 < aiju> damn
18:56 < str1ngs> ah so you have a method to emulate DESTDIR using GOPATH?
18:56 < aiju> i still haven't started my project collaboration site called
Peenemünde
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18:56 < str1ngs> if so do you have some documentation or some reference I
could look at?
18:57 < niemeyer> str1ngs: How do you mean?
18:57 < niemeyer> str1ngs: You can just use GOPATH itself (?)
18:57 < str1ngs> ah sorry I misread what you meant
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18:58 < str1ngs> so you just manually install using goinstall from bzr
branches
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19:02 < niemeyer> str1ngs: Yeah..  well..  not manually..  goinstall itself
handles it
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19:02 < niemeyer> str1ngs: I haven't added any packages depending on Go into
Ubuntu itself yet, though
19:03 < niemeyer> str1ngs: My plan is to include the dependencies into the
same package, once that's done
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19:03 < niemeyer> str1ngs: This should be quite easy to do with goinstall
itself
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19:04 < niemeyer> str1ngs: Putting a GOPATH within the source directory,
grab the dependencies, pack and release
19:04 < niemeyer> str1ngs: Just theory for now, though..  should have actual
experience soon
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19:06 < str1ngs> what I was thinking.  I'm not over effected because I use
~/go so not an issue.  just I see it come up now and again.
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19:07 < str1ngs> so probably the best answer if for people is dont package
3rd party libs use goinstall for now
19:07 < nsf> http://pastie.org/2439879 - what do you guys thing about that
kind of code?
19:07 < nsf> too much copy&paste?
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19:07 < nsf> I like it that way for some reason
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19:11 < nsf> lol, lua's grammar is awesome
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19:11 < nsf> it doesn't even have semicolon insertion
19:11 < nsf> 'a = 2 b = 3' is valid in lua
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19:11 < nsf> :D
19:12 < moraes> lua is awesome
19:12 < moraes> fixed
19:12 < nsf> no
19:12 < nsf> not really
19:12 < nsf> it's ok
19:12 < nsf> :)
19:12 < nsf> and grammar is awesome
19:13 < nsf> it's so tiny and yet useful
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19:21 < Sh4rK> is there anyone here who can help with "walk" library?
19:24 < moraes> just ask i guess.
19:24 < Sh4rK> ok
19:25 < Sh4rK> I want to use it to just create the most basic window
possible
19:25 < Sh4rK> and get a hDC for it
19:25 < Sh4rK> (to use with opengl)
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19:37 < erus`> nsf that is cool
19:37 < erus`> more languages should do that
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19:40 < Sh4rK> erus`: what?
19:40 < erus`> 'a = 2 b = 3' is valid in lua
19:41 < Sh4rK> is it the same as a = 2; b = 3; in other languages?
19:41 < niemeyer> The result is wrong, though..  the proper result for a is
3, and 1.5 for b
19:42 < Sh4rK> oh
19:42 < Sh4rK> 2b
19:42 < Sh4rK> lol
19:42 < niemeyer> Sh4rK: It was a joke
19:43 < Sh4rK> it would be cool though :D
19:43 < Sh4rK> I imagine there is already a language that does it
19:43 < Sh4rK> some functional one
19:44 < Sh4rK> anyone anything on my question?
19:50 < moraes> niemeyer, are you in rio?
19:50 < niemeyer> moraes: No, I wasn't invited for the movie unfortunately
19:50 < moraes> Sh4rK, sorry, i have no idea about what you are talking :P
19:50 < moraes> niemeyer, did i use the preposition wrongly?
19:51 < niemeyer> moraes: Nah ;)
19:51 < niemeyer> moraes: I'm not there, no
19:51 < Sh4rK> moraes: walk is a go library to access windows functions
19:51 < moraes> curious name
19:52 < Sh4rK> and it has other things
19:52 < Sh4rK> to make creating windows easier
19:53 < moraes> go is used for that?
19:53 < moraes> i'm so uninformed about desktop programming...
19:53 < Sh4rK> go is used for what people use it for
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19:54 < niemeyer> +1
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20:21 < Sh4rK> how can I get the size of a struct
20:21 < Sh4rK> (in bytes)
20:22 < Sh4rK> I found it
20:27 < erus`> you cant do that with haskell though
20:27 < erus`> because 'a b' means a applied to b
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20:29 < gatestone> Ok, guys: what is that Spot thing?
20:29 -!- flaguy48 [~gmallard@user-0c6s350.cable.mindspring.com] has left #go-nuts
[]
20:30 < gatestone> (the rumoured new Google designed language)
20:31 < exch> gatestone: No idea what you mean by 'that Spot thing'.  Do you
have any context?
20:32 < gatestone> The rumoured new Google designed language.
20:33 < gatestone> They just filed a trademark application and registered a
bunch of domains.
20:33 < f2f>
http://fusible.com/2011/08/google-files-spot-trademark-registers-domains-for-programming-language/
20:34 < qeed> whos the group making that one
20:35 < gatestone> This is kind of off-topic of course...but just fishing
for some inside info ;-)
20:36 < nsf> I bet another Java clone
20:36 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-24-178.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has
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20:36 < f2f> i bet it's going to be a replacement for c++ ;)
20:37 < aiju> i bet it's a HQ9+ clone
20:37 < f2f> HQ9+B
20:37 < f2f> coz it's got to be turing complete :)
20:38 < qeed> golang isnt catching on at google?
20:38 < f2f> so far google has 'go', 'crack' and 'pot', with an S in front.
20:38 < f2f> i like their direction ;)
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20:41 < nsf> spot is a stupid name for the language, btw
20:42 < nsf> I think it's a java clone because there is a HotSpot VM
20:42 < nsf> and that could be the origin of the name
20:42 < moraes> /j #spot-nuts
20:42 < moraes> ooops
20:43 < Sh4rK> lol
20:43 < f2f> didn't gri work on hotspot?
20:43 < nsf> worked for sure
20:43 < nsf> but hotspot is kind of a sun's project
20:43 < f2f> yes, that was his background, wasn't it?
20:43 < nsf> or is it opensource?
20:44 < nsf> f2f: something like that, yes
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20:47 < gatestone> I am dreaming: Go based on-the-fly compiled scripting
language & frameworks a la AJAX...
20:47 < f2f> oh, well.  the formal language theory community bust be waiting
with bated breath.
20:47 < moraes> gatestone, me too
20:47 < aiju> gatestone: me too, but i call it a nightmare
20:47 < nsf> I hate everything WEB related
20:48 < aiju> exactly.
20:48 < nsf> don't know why
20:48 < f2f> rumours, we need more rumouts!
20:48 < moraes> i don't know anything that is not web related :-(
20:48 < f2f> s/ts/rs/
20:48 -!- aat [~aat@cpe-72-225-174-173.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Computer
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20:48 < nsf> sadly 70-80% of the Go users
20:48 < nsf> are web-backend programmers
20:48 < nsf> imho
20:48 < nsf> or even more
20:48 < nsf> 90%?
20:48 < nsf> :D
20:49 < moraes> what would you expect from a language coming from google...
20:49 < moraes> only source for spot language is that site
20:49 < moraes> others are just reproducing it
20:50 < moraes> one why the smart title "google to release its own language"
20:50 < gatestone> Hating web is like hating TCP and/or IP. Well, some
Unicef & Plan 9 fans do...
20:50 < moraes> *with
20:50 < nsf> moraes: I don't expect anything from google
20:50 < aiju> gatestone: TCP is a clusterfuck
20:50 < gatestone> s/Unicef/Unix.  (I am on iPod!)
20:50 < aiju> hahaha
20:50 < moraes> unicef
20:50 < nsf> they've released a good language, but most people see it as a
web-backends DSL
20:50 < moraes> i was wondering
20:50 < nsf> :\
20:51 < moraes> plan 9 guys are very opinionated
20:51 < aiju> unlike everyone else
20:51 < aiju> Linux people are all humble
20:51 < aiju> gentle
20:51 < aiju> and never strongly opinionated about their OS
20:51 < nsf> and I just hate everything
20:51 < nsf> :D
20:52 < gatestone> I just love everything.  That's so much easier.
20:52 < erus`> haha
20:52 < nsf> got an open source project?  show it to me, and I will hate it
20:52 < nsf> :D
20:52 < erus`> i find debain users are very forgiving to newbies
20:52 < erus`> HURR HURR
20:52 < aiju> hahahahaahahaha
20:52 < moraes> "ok, guys, it seems that oracle will win.  what was the plan
b?  ah, that spot language..."
20:53 < aiju> just loving everything is much harder than just hating
everything
20:53 < moraes> i hate operating systems
20:53 < moraes> they just get in the way
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20:54 < gatestone> I feel love is easier than hate.  Am I abnormal?  BTW I
love Windows, Linux, OS/X and Pkan 9!
20:54 < aiju> yes
20:54 < moraes> yes
20:54 < gatestone> s/Pk/Pl
20:54 < aiju> if you love Windos, you are abnormal
20:55 < nsf> http://image.hombrefeo.com/uploads/mac_fap.gif
20:55 < moraes> if you *know* plan 9, you are abnormal
20:55 < gatestone> Rob Pikem
20:55 < aiju> knowing Plan 9 is the first step to becoming the Übermensch
20:56 < gatestone> Rob Pike is my hero, second only perhaps to Richard
Feynman...
20:56 -!- Fish- [~Fish@bus77-2-82-244-150-190.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit:
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20:57 * moraes googles for Richard Feynman
20:57 < nsf> I think rob is a bit obsessed with CSP
20:57 < nsf> maybe I'm wrong though, I don't know him
20:57 < aiju> he isn't enough obsessed with CSP
20:58 < moraes> what is csp
20:58 < aiju> asks someone in a Go channel
20:58 < nsf> communicating sequential processes
20:58 < nsf> aiju: :D
20:58 < gatestone> Well, I think its the best paradigm for coordinating
parallelism...
20:58 < nsf> maybe
20:59 < moraes> bear with me, i'm new
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21:00 < moraes> Continuous Speech Processing, Computational Singular
Perturbation http://www.acronymfinder.com/CSP.html
21:01 < aiju> 22:59 < nsf> communicating sequential processes
21:01 < aiju> a book by hoare
21:01 < mpl> moraes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communicating_Sequential_Processes
21:01 < mpl> moraes: courtesy of tony hoare
21:02 < moraes> thank you
21:02 < mpl> np
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21:04 < gatestone> It is basically the thing that goroutines communicate by
blocking channel I/O.
21:07 < nsf> and do you know what I hate the most?
21:07 < nsf> haskell
21:08 < nsf> !
21:08 < nsf> :)
21:09 < moraes> everybody loves haskell
21:11 < nsf> haskell programmers are like mac users to me
21:12 < nsf> I don't understand why they are doing what they are doing
21:12 < nsf> :D
21:12 * TheMue likes all people who like stereotypes, they are so stereotype
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21:13 < nsf> TheMue: sure, stereotypes, I just haven't seen a healthy
haskell programmer and/or mac user
21:13 < nsf> :D
21:13 < nsf> I will be glad to see one
21:14 * TheMue feels healthy, has a mac, develops in go, likes erlang and
smalltalk and dislikes haskell
21:14 -!- Yeltsin [~bob@174.127.99.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
21:14 < nsf> :D
21:15 -!- welterde [welterde@thinkbase.srv.welterde.de] has quit [Ping timeout:
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21:16 < nsf> hm..  that's interesting
21:16 < nsf> unicode.IsNumber
21:16 < nsf> unicode.IsDigit
21:16 < nsf> and what is the difference
21:17 < aiju> heh
21:17 < aiju> there is a 10 in unicode
21:17 < nsf> O_o
21:17 < nsf> cool
21:17 < aiju> at least i remember to see it
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21:18 < moraes> hex numbers can have more than digits!
21:18 < moraes> but i guess it is not that
21:18 < nsf> moraes: well, you can use the whole unicode for numbers
21:19 < remy_o> nsf: not all languages use 10 digits for writing numbers
21:19 < nsf> remy_o: k, thx
21:19 < nsf> I've changed it to IsDigit in my code
21:19 < nsf> because that's what I expect :)
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21:20 < remy_o> however i don't know if isdigit() returns true for
equivalents of 0..9 in other scripts
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21:21 < remy_o> but i think so
21:21 < nsf> yeah, it does something more than rune >= '0' && rune <=
'9'
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21:21 < remy_o> for example, in Chinese you have ideographs for digits 0..9
but you also have ideographs for 10, 100
21:22 < aiju> japanese use a system based on 10,000
21:22 < remy_o> so all of these are numbers, but only those representing
0..9 are digits
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21:24 < nsf> ok, thanks again
21:24 < s|k> there I have done it, I've changed to use tabs with Go
21:24 < s|k> ftplugin ftw
21:28 < remy_o> nsf: read
http://unicode.org/Public/6.0.0/ucd/extracted/DerivedNumericType.txt for the
complete list
21:28 < nsf> s|k: you could use autocmd
21:28 < nsf> remy_o: thanks, thanks, I got it
21:28 < nsf> s|k: au BufRead,BufNewFile *.md set wrap | set linebreak
21:29 < nsf> that's what I do for github markdown files
21:29 < nsf> well, whatever, ftplugin works too
21:30 < s|k> nsf: yep, I use autocmd for stuff too, but since go came with
ftplugin stuff for vim I just added another one
21:30 < nsf> is it?
21:30 < nsf> didn't know that :D
21:30 < s|k> check the "misck" folder
21:30 < s|k> er
21:30 < s|k> "misc"
21:30 < nsf> oh, it does
21:31 < s|k> yep
21:31 < nsf> well, it wasn't there
21:31 < nsf> because I use my own ftplugin for go for gocode
21:31 < nsf> hopefully they don't conflict with each other
21:31 < s|k> I don't know
21:31 < nsf> and I don't really care, hahaha
21:31 < s|k> you know, I actually kind of like the way tabs work in vim
21:31 < nsf> :D
21:32 < s|k> who knew
21:32 < s|k> because you can't backspace to the first column like you can
with spaces
21:32 < s|k> that's kinda handy
21:32 < s|k> hrm
21:33 < s|k> Go's syntax highlghting is broken for ` and // inside strings
by the way
21:33 < s|k> so if you have a better one, let me know :O
21:33 < aiju> :syntax off
21:33 < aiju> that's how i fix it
21:33 < s|k> heh
21:33 < s|k> that's hard core
21:33 < s|k> I like the pretty colors
21:33 < nsf> stranegly enough many great programmers use very weird editors
21:34 < aiju> http://aiju.de/rant/syntax-highlighting
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21:34 < nsf> strangely*
21:34 < s|k> aiju: :P there's no meaning to the colors in your poem
21:34 < aiju> you're about the twentieth person to say that
21:35 < aiju> and you're totally wrong
21:35 < aiju> there is a subtle play to actual syntax highlighting
implementations in there
21:35 < nsf> most syntax highlighters aren't actually syntax highlighters
21:36 < s|k> there's no helpful meaning to the colors in your poem*
21:36 < aiju> yeah
21:36 < aiju> just like real syntax highlighting
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21:36 < aiju> woo numbers are yellow
21:36 < nsf> :D
21:36 < s|k> imagine if just comments were a shade lighter than everything
else
21:36 < s|k> wouldn't that be helpful?
21:36 < s|k> I think so
21:37 < aiju> comments look entirely different already
21:37 < nsf> syntax highlighted code looks cool
21:37 < nsf> :D
21:37 < nsf> on my netbook
21:37 < s|k> hrm
21:37 < s|k> personal preference
21:38 < s|k> I don't become a better programmer by turning off syntax
coloring
21:38 < nsf> and you don't become a better one by turning it on
21:38 < nsf> :D
21:38 < nsf> see, no real difference
21:38 < s|k> well
21:38 < aiju> i just find that the colours drive me insane after a time
21:38 < s|k> it might make a syntax error obvious
21:39 < s|k> so I might not become a better programmer
21:39 < s|k> but I might lose less time
21:39 < s|k> fixing compile errors
21:39 < Namegduf> I'm dubious that syntax highlighting accelerates or
retards becoming better at things.
21:40 -!- rubixuni [~fieosjosi@adsl-72-152-37-91.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined
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21:41 < aiju> i'd be surprised if anyone actually believes either
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21:42 < rubixuni> is there a good google go tutorial?
21:42 < moraes> rubixuni, fortunately yes
21:42 < nsf> unfortunately
21:42 < nsf> :D
21:42 < rubixuni> well, the one on the websites is making me go nuts.
21:42 < s|k> rubixuni: read the tutorial, the specification and the
effective Go page
21:43 -!- pyrhho [~pyrhho@027e80ed.bb.sky.com] has joined #go-nuts
21:43 < s|k> +b
21:43 < s|k> for the pun
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21:43 < moraes> rubixuni,
http://golangtutorials.blogspot.com/2011/05/table-of-contents.html
21:44 < s|k> I didn't find the tutorial very helpful, it was an overview but
I didn't feel like I could build anything until after I read the specification
21:44 < s|k> and the effective Go page
21:44 < moraes> use everything.  i found that tutorial gave me a better
overview of what i wanted to do.
21:44 < moraes> which was OO go :P
21:45 < aiju> there isn't really anything which describes how to use
goroutines and channels well
21:45 * moraes runs
21:45 < rubixuni> moraes: thanks, it doesn't look that the tutorial you
linked me to will make me go nuts as quickly.
21:45 < s|k> moraes: that seems pretty wordy
21:45 < s|k> aiju: the memory model I think does
21:45 < s|k> http://golang.org/doc/go_mem.html
21:45 < aiju> there are some very interesting uses
21:45 < aiju> would be nice to have them collected somehere
21:45 < aiju> e.g.  writing closures to a channel to work on shared data
21:45 < s|k> golang ought to be a wiki maybe
21:46 < s|k> golang.org
21:46 < aiju> there is a gowiki
21:46 * exch found the go library source to be a good help
21:46 < s|k> yes that too
21:46 < aiju> i hate the memory model stuff
21:46 < aiju> not just in Go, but everywhere
21:46 < aiju> horribly overcomplicated
21:47 < aiju> one simple rule: concurrent access to shared data using
non-atomic instructions is broken.
21:47 < s|k> that works
21:48 < aiju> i think it should be obvious that channel read/writes are
synchronization points
21:48 < aiju> (on unbuffered channels)
21:49 < s|k> hrm
21:49 < moraes> rubixuni, it is kinda basic, but i needed that and it
helped.
21:49 -!- remy_o [~babar@archlinux/developer/remy-o] has quit [Ping timeout: 240
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21:49 < s|k> I've started work on a URL normalization package
21:49 < s|k> I think that will be useful
21:49 < s|k>
https://github.com/apphacker/Normalize-URL/blob/master/normalize.go
21:49 < s|k> just stubbed some things out so far
21:50 < aiju> sync.Mutex isn't even necessary, you can perfectly use a
channel for that
21:50 < s|k> working on the tests first
21:50 < aiju> a := make([]chan int, 1)
21:50 < aiju> a <- 0 // lock
21:50 < aiju> <- a // unlock
21:50 < s|k> yep
21:51 -!- remy_tel [~remy_tel@89.95.59.132] has joined #go-nuts
21:51 < s|k> I liked the Context stuff that was posted to the go nuts group
the other day though
21:51 < s|k> that uses a Mutex
21:51 < aiju> on the other hand, you can create a channel using only two
mutices
21:51 < moraes> s|k, e.g., NormalizeDomain.  if you have a URL, just do
URL.Host = "foo"?
21:51 < aiju> and a shared variable
21:52 < s|k> moraes: probably
21:52 < rubixuni> ok, looking through these docs is taking a long time for
stupid things, how make a string from an int?
21:52 < rubixuni> *do you
21:52 < s|k> rubixuni: strconv
21:53 < moraes> RemoveFragment -> url.Fragment = ""
21:53 < remy_tel> or sprintf
21:53 < aiju> fmt.Sprintf is your friend
21:53 * nsf is building Go on his intel atom slowpoke netbook
21:53 < nsf> let's see how fast is it
21:53 < s|k> moraes: right, some of those might be unnecessary
21:53 < s|k> or it might be nice to have what is going on be explicit
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21:54 < nsf> pretty fast
21:54 < nsf> :P
21:54 < s|k> moraes: will do a lot of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/URL_normalization
21:54 < nsf> in fact it's done
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21:55 < nsf> tests are running now
21:55 < nsf> hehe
21:55 < moraes> s|k, some are useful.  some probaly can go away in the end.
21:56 < moraes> like, direct setting/rempving url parts
21:56 < s|k> right, maybe
21:56 < aiju> working with URLs..  rocket science
21:56 < nsf> :D
21:56 < rubixuni> thanks, how do you open a file and get a []byte out?
21:57 < s|k> as I said there may be some readability benefits
21:57 < moraes> aiju is the worst
21:57 < s|k>
https://github.com/apphacker/Normalize-URL/blob/master/normalize_test.go
21:57 < s|k> tests I'm working on now
21:57 < aiju> have you reached that conclusion that fast or have you been
here longer
21:57 < s|k> once I have the tests done I'll start implementing the actual
methods
21:58 < nsf> lol, it's so funny, I don't remember how to install gocode
21:58 * nsf is reading the guide he wrote
21:58 < nsf> :D
21:58 < s|k> heh
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21:59 < s|k> that's actually kind of nice
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22:10 < nsf> that's awesome
22:10 < nsf> Go lib rebuild on my intel atom N570 (2 slowpoke cores)
22:10 < nsf> 45 seconds
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22:14 < nsf> I don't know why I'm surprised though
22:14 < nsf> :D
22:20 < s|k> :P
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22:25 < mpl> nsf: because you've been conditionned by too much c++ ;P
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22:27 < nsf> mpl: on my netbook gcc compiles C as slow as my desktop
compiles C++
22:27 < nsf> :D
22:27 < nsf> I guess that's why I was surprised
22:33 < brandini> yeah
22:33 < brandini> I'm going to put a chromebook into service as a webserver
I think :)
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22:35 < erus`> brandini: how much did you pay?
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22:36 < brandini> not only does it compile fast but it's more than double as
fast as my phenom box running the same app as python
22:36 < brandini> erus`: they sent my wife one :)
22:36 < erus`> lucky for some...
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22:36 < erus`> wow they are 350 pounds on amazon
22:36 < erus`> why not get a real laptop
22:36 < brandini> yup
22:36 < brandini> exactly
22:37 < brandini> well...  that includes the data package from verizon?
22:38 < erus`> nope :) wifi
22:38 < brandini> I'm mostly looking for a lower power setup
22:39 < erus`> i was gonna buy a £120 little dual core mini-itx desktop
thing as a webserver
22:39 < mpl> are there any chrome books with arms inside?
22:39 < erus`> but i will hardly use it
22:39 < brandini> erus`: got a link?
22:40 < erus`>
http://www.ebuyer.com/267867-emachine-er1401-desktop-pt-nbzec-004
22:41 < brandini> mpl: afaik they all have the atom
22:41 < brandini> erus`: depending on price I was looking at this
http://soekris.com/net6501.htm
22:42 < erus`> the cheapest i could build one on ebuyer was just under 200
pounds
22:42 < erus`> so maybe ebay or something
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22:44 < brandini>
http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2008/07/building-tiny-ultra-low-power-pcs.html
22:47 < brandini> hrmmm, a mac mini only draws 10watts at idle
22:48 < brandini> I could probably drop that down if I replaced the spinny
disk with a SSD
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23:07 < mpl> brandini: kthx
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23:48 < dacresni> i read that does not support user defined operators but im
not sure what that disallows
23:49 < dacresni> does that mean i can't redefign existing operators also?
23:49 < dacresni> like in python?
23:50 < dacresni> nevemind
http://sites.google.com/site/gopatterns/object-oriented/operators
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23:59 < Sh4rK> what will be HDC if there's this in C:
23:59 < Sh4rK> typedef struct HDC__{int i;}*HDC;
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--- Log closed Sun Aug 28 00:00:22 2011