--- Log opened Fri Dec 11 00:00:31 2009
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01:24 < homa_rano> how can I compare an int and a uint for equality?
01:24 < homa_rano> the spec is not making this any easier...
01:25 < KillerX> if x == int(y)
01:26 < KillerX> where y is the uint
01:26 < homa_rano> that would do it
01:26 < homa_rano> thanks
01:26 < KirkMcDonald> And if the unsigned number is greater than what will
fit in a signed number?
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01:27 < homa_rano> well this particular number will never vary from
0<=n<=40
01:27 < homa_rano> and I need to shift by it
01:27 < KirkMcDonald> Ah.
01:27 < homa_rano> ...so it had to be uint
01:27 < homa_rano> then that broke other stuff
01:27 < KirkMcDonald> But I wonder what int8(-1) == int8(uint8(255)) says.
01:28 < homa_rano> does int(num) compile in some overflow catcher?
01:28 < KirkMcDonald> This is basically my question.  :-)
01:28 < homa_rano> I see
01:28 < homa_rano> this can be tested
01:29 < KirkMcDonald> It can.
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01:30 < KirkMcDonald> Heh
01:30 < KirkMcDonald> Well, that specific case fails at compile time, since
it detects that the constant 255 can't be used as an int8.
01:31 < KirkMcDonald> Oh my.
01:31 < skelterjohn> I made a post with a construct for a threadsafe method
to read from a channel with multiple receivers, if anyone is interested.
01:31 < skelterjohn> to the ML
01:31 < KirkMcDonald> This prints true: http://gopaste.org/view/E12u9
01:32 < KirkMcDonald> Which is probably the behavior I'd expect.
01:33 < homa_rano> my linker is yelling at me: mainstart: undefined:
main·init
01:33 < homa_rano> there is assuredly a main function
01:33 < skelterjohn> package main
01:33 < skelterjohn> ?
01:33 < skelterjohn> the main function must be in the main package
01:33 < homa_rano> ah right
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03:24 < trevor> Is the go website's information on the arm port up to date?
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03:25 < trevor> It says the arm port doesn't work on OSX and that the
overall compatability isn't completely there
03:25 < trevor> Still true?
03:31 < uriel> trevor: I'm not sure, why don't you try it?
03:32 < trevor> I'm trying now, pulling the sources now
03:32 < trevor> Just wanted to ask before while I'm building and setting
things up to give people a chance to talk :)
03:33 < trevor> I'm interested in using go for nintendo ds development
03:33 < trevor> ds has an arm7 and an arm9
03:33 < uriel> I have seen a few arm related fixes come in over the last few
days, but I'm not too sure about the status, it clearly has got less work and less
testing than the other ports
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03:36 < trevor> A few weeks ago I found a document that explains what the
number in 5g 8g and the like mean, but now I can't find it
03:36 < trevor> Anyone know what I'm thinking of?
03:37 < kfx> architecture
03:37 < kfx> http://golang.org/doc/go_faq.html#What_kind_of_a_name_is_6g
03:38 < trevor> There we go, I was overlooking it I guess
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03:42 < trevor> Hmm, the runtime fails to build on OSX
03:42 < trevor> using the arm port
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03:42 <+kaib> trevor: what is the error you get?
03:42 <+kaib> (i just fixed something the today which isn't part of a
release yet)
03:43 < trevor> 5c -Idarwin -Idarwin/arm -wF -N mem.c
03:43 < trevor> mem.c:7 5c: No such file or directory: defs.h
03:43 <+kaib> trevor: try building the native darwin toolchain once.
03:43 < trevor> I suppose I should be using a bleeding edge version rather
than release
03:44 <+kaib> trevor: i haven't seen the issue you are describing.
03:44 <+kaib> trevor: you might be onto a new problem
03:44 < trevor> Want me to build with darwin and GOARCH= 386 ?
03:44 <+kaib> trevor: i usually build several compilers from the same source
so it might be something in the arm bootstrap has been overlooked.
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03:45 <+kaib> trevor: unless you have a 64 bit machine in which case
GOARCH=amd64
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03:46 < trevor> When I ran 5l I was getting "??none??: cannot open file:
/Users/trevor/dev/go/pkg/darwin_arm/runtime.a"
03:46 < trevor> I'll tell you what the error is for amd64 when it builds
03:46 < trevor> Or if it is success
03:46 <+kaib> trevor: oh, you need to set GOOS=linux when building 5g
03:46 < trevor> Even on darwin?
03:46 <+kaib> trevor: GOOS=linux, GOARCH=arm for building 5g
03:46 < trevor> Ok
03:47 <+kaib> trevor: yes, you always specify GOOS and GOARCH for the
*target* you are building for.
03:47 <+kaib> trevor: the build system automatically figures out the host.
03:47 < trevor> Oh, error on my part then
03:47 <+kaib> trevor: there might still be something in the chain ..
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03:48 <+kaib> trevor: try building 5g again with GOOS=linux and GOARCH=arm
03:48 < trevor> GOARCH=arm GOOS=linux ./all.bash is running now
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03:49 < trevor> ??none??: cannot open file:
/Users/trevor/dev/go/pkg/darwin_arm/runtime.a
03:49 < trevor> Should I try something fresher than -r release?
03:50 <+kaib> trevor: aah.  you need to use all-arm.bash
03:50 <+kaib> (wonder why all-bash isn't complaining)
03:51 < trevor> As far as I could tell all.bash worked, it didn't build the
runtime on closer inspection tho
03:51 < trevor> It did as best as it could to hide that error, tho :)
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03:53 <+kaib> trevor: all-arm.bash builds only the pieces that currently
work with arm
03:53 <+kaib> trevor: it should definitely build the runtime as well.
03:53 < trevor> It failed
03:53 < trevor> On the making pkg part
03:54 < trevor> http://paste.lisp.org/display/91920
03:54 < trevor> I pasted the whole thing because I'm not sure if those
scattered warning are something to be concerned about
03:54 <+kaib> trevor: ok, good.  this is a known issue.  you need tip, i
submitted the fix for that today
03:54 < trevor> Whats tip?
03:55 * kaib is a hg newbie
03:55 < trevor> I am aswell
03:55 <+kaib> trevor: AFAIK the most recent version
03:55 <+kaib> trevor: fresher than a release.
03:55 < trevor> I think I should replace the -r release with something
03:55 < trevor> -r tip ?
03:56 < trevor> hg clone -r tip https://go.googlecode.com/hg/ $GOROOT
03:56 < trevor> Seems to be doing something anyways
03:57 <+kaib> trevor: i think you just need a hg update
03:57 <+kaib> trevor: in the existing repository
03:57 < trevor> k
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04:01 < trevor> pkg seems to have built
04:01 < trevor> a lot of tests are failing
04:01 <+kaib> trevor: you are using all.bash, aren't you?
04:01 <+kaib> trevor: all-arm.bash runs only tests that are known to pass.
04:01 < trevor> No, you said run all-arm.bash
04:03 < trevor> http://paste.lisp.org/display/91921
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04:03 < trevor> After running that I get http://paste.lisp.org/display/91922
04:04 <+kaib> aah.  you probably don't have qemu installed
04:05 <+kaib> trevor: to execute the tests it needs either a local emulator
(the default) or something that pushes the binary to the target platform.
04:05 < trevor> probably not, is there a document I should be reading?  I
hate to bug you and this channel if this has all been laid out in writing already
04:05 <+kaib> trevor: your courtesy is noted but there isn't any document
yet ..
04:05 <+kaib> trevor: :-)
04:06 < trevor> Perhaps I'll put something rudimentary up after I get this
working
04:08 <+kaib> trevor: please do.  my environment has shaped itself over the
past year or so, it's hard to differentiate out what is required for a fresh build
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04:10 < trevor> Well right now I am "sudo port install qemu"
04:10 < trevor> I'm guessing its going to take a while to build if I know
emulators :)
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04:14 < trevor> "Gc uses a different calling convention and linker and can
therefore only be linked with C programs using the same convention.  There is such
a C compiler"
04:14 < trevor> What c compiler can do that?
04:14 <+kaib> trevor: once it's installed let me know if it works.  earlier
versions had an elf loading but that is presumably fixed (i have a patch in any
case)
04:15 <+kaib> trevor: 5c, it's built at the same time as 5g
04:15 < trevor> Neat
04:15 < trevor> Maybe by nights end I'll have a go binary up and running in
a nintendo ds emulator :)
04:17 < trevor> tests are failing again.  Is there something I need to do to
tell all-arm.bash where qemu is?
04:19 <+kaib> trevor: look at $GOROOT/test/run-arm
04:19 <+kaib> trevor: there is some env variable magic you need.
04:19 < Gracenotes> .
04:19 <+kaib> trevor: to run qemu use -cpu cortex-a8
04:20 < trevor> Hmm, I suppose I am going to need some os for qemu to boot
into
04:22 < trevor> I have mine set to "qemu-system-arm -cpu cortex-a8 " now
04:23 < trevor> It was qemu-arm, but my installer named it qemu-system-arm
04:23 < trevor> The tests still fail, however
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04:24 < Eridius> Anyone use gg?  It doesn't build against the current
release tag.  Says it can't find io.ReadFile.
04:24 < trevor> Anyways, 5l is linking now, so I guess the runtime build
fine
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04:24 <+kaib> trevor: oh, that's actually interesting.  i've run qemu in
'system' mode where it passed the syscalls into the host system
04:25 <+kaib> trevor: this obviously works on linux but i haven't tried it
on darwin
04:25 < trevor> I didn't realize that was what -system- meant for qemu
04:25 <+kaib> trevor: yeah.  you can always look at run.out in test to see
what the error is.
04:25 < Eridius> ahh, ioutil.
04:25 < trevor> I've never used qemu before
04:26 <+kaib> trevor: there are two variants, one that requires a proper os
image and one that passes through.  double check which one is which.
04:26 < Eridius> I've found two different Go.tmbundles on github.  Anybody
know which is better?
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04:31 < trevor> kaib: How do you run go arm binaries in qemu?
04:31 < trevor> Or do you do that at all?
04:32 <+kaib> trevor: i run them on a linux workstation.  but currently i
mostly run on an android phone.
04:33 <+kaib> trevor: qemu has bugs.  given the compiler has bugs i'd rather
deal only with one buggy piece of software at a time.
04:33 < trevor> Sure, understandable
04:33 <+kaib> trevor: qemu is also sometimes inconsistent with real hardware
(sometimes because it does much more than real hardware does)
04:34 < trevor> I see, I suppose I will dry get a binary running in my ds
emulator now
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04:40 < trevor> "There is a “foreign function interface” to allow safe
calling of C-written libraries from Go code"
04:40 < trevor> Where can I find out more about the ffi?
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04:40 < trevor> Is it a pkg?
04:42 < alexsuraci> trevor: take a look at cgo (command)
04:45 < uriel> Eridius: what is Go.tmbundles?
04:45 < trevor> alexsuraci: will
04:45 < trevor> ok, channel, I have to leave for now.  Will be back later.
Thanks for all your help kaib
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04:46 < Eridius> uriel: TextMate language bundles for Go
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04:51 < uriel> Eridius: http://go-lang.cat-v.org/text-editors
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04:52 < uriel> Eridius: is there any other than the one listed there?
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04:59 < robot12> morning !
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05:06 < Eridius> uriel: there's also http://github.com/rsms/Go.tmbundle
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05:19 < uriel> Eridius: thanks, added it to the list
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05:20 < ThatTurkeyStory> do Go language designers idle in here at all?
05:23 < uriel> ThatTurkeyStory: sometimes, iant and kaib are often here
05:23 < toft> does go not have a bitwise not?
05:24 <+kaib> ThatTurkeyStory: however, i'm not a designer proper, just an
implementor..
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05:28 < toft> er, never mind, it looks like ^ means both xor and not.
05:28 < ThatTurkeyStory> im just really interested in how Go is providing
support for generic programming.  russ cox made a small post about it on his blog
and theres been some talk in the comments but i was wondering if there was any way
to better influence design in one way or the other.
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05:30 < uriel> ThatTurkeyStory: I hope not, so far I have seen very little
reason for generics in Go, just people that have not used the language for
anything babbling about how they want go to be like whatever other language they
are used to
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05:31 <+kaib> ThatTurkeyStory: what do you wish from generics, what use
cases are you trying to solve?
05:31 < ThatTurkeyStory> rather than repeating, i'm Rivorus in the comments:
http://research.swtch.com/2009/12/generic-dilemma.html#comments
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05:32 < ThatTurkeyStory> im mostly just interested in Go supporting generic
programming to better support library development
05:32 < uriel> ThatTurkeyStory: what Go libraries have you written that
could benefit from new language features?
05:34 < homa_rano> for mercurial users: here's an extension to automatically
gofmt during a commit: http://bitbucket.org/ede/hggofmt
05:35 < uriel> homa_rano: cool, will add it to
http://go-lang.cat-v.org/dev-utils
05:35 < homa_rano> it's stolen directly from part of codereview.py, but
without the crazy parts
05:35 < ThatTurkeyStory> nothing right now, thats the issue.  im currently a
C++ programmer and im extremely interested in Go's design.  since the part of Go's
goal is to be an alternative to C++ for much low level work it should at the very
least be able to represent basic generic programming since that's the direction
C++ development has been headed in
05:36 < ThatTurkeyStory> at least that's my opinion on it
05:36 < ThatTurkeyStory> i'm primarily a library developer
05:36 < ThatTurkeyStory> and im extremely interested in and practice generic
programming
05:37 < ThatTurkeyStory> since there is talk of adding template or generic
like features to Go, i'd really love to be able to communicate with those who have
a say in its development
05:37 < Eridius> whoa, unused imports/variables are an error?
05:37 < Rob_Russell> Eridius: yeah
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05:38 <+kaib> ThatTurkeyStory: i'm also a c++ developer, as are most people
at google.
05:38 < ThatTurkeyStory> uriel, as in my comments, things i would love to
see from Go are actually pretty minimal.  in particular type functions and
interfaces that support associated types
05:38 < Rob_Russell> Eridius: if it's an import you want to temporarily
ignore, a lot of people use import _ "pkgname" (though that actually has
side-effects)
05:38 < ThatTurkeyStory> awesome, kaib
05:38 < Rob_Russell> >type A interface { Foo() B; } type B interface { A;
}
05:38 <+kaib> ThatTurkeyStory: everyone on the go team has plenty of c++
experience afaik.
05:38 < Eridius> what about an unused variable?  I have a calculation I want
to use, but I'm not using it yet and I'd rather not have to go comment things
unnecessarily when testing
05:39 <+kaib> ThatTurkeyStory: however, the tradeoff for generics is simple
05:39 < Rob_Russell> is the compiling bot gone?
05:39 <+kaib> ThatTurkeyStory: s/simple/subtle/
05:39 < ThatTurkeyStory> what im really wondering is there any desire at all
from the team to support libraries like the Boost graph library
05:40 < ThatTurkeyStory> by that i mean associated types, the ability to map
types to interfaces after creation, etc.
05:40 < Rob_Russell> Eridius: in both cases you're better off commenting out
05:40 <+kaib> ThatTurkeyStory: they add a lot of overhead and don't
necessarily add the corresponding benefit.
05:40 < Rob_Russell> Eridius: (find a keyboard shortcut)
05:40 <+kaib> ThatTurkeyStory: it seems to me that a graph library could be
built using interfaces and it doesn't seem to need generics?
05:40 < uriel> ThatTurkeyStory: as I see it, part of Go's goal is also *not*
to be C++, if you want Boot's blinding fast compile time and exquisite compile
time errors, you know where to find them.
05:40 < Eridius> yeah I know a keyboard shortcut, I just found it pretty odd
that this was an error
05:40 < Ycros> it's annoying not having generics, especially as map is
polymorphic already, so there's an inconsistency
05:40 < Rob_Russell> so has anyone run in to this?  type A interface { Foo()
B; } type B interface { A; } gives "interface contains embedded non-interface A"
05:40 < uriel> c++ damages the brain
05:41 <+kaib> ThatTurkeyStory: generics are really syntactic sugar for
unboxig, and the further you get from the core use cases the less useful it seems
to be.
05:41 < ThatTurkeyStory> uriel why are you being so rude?
05:41 < ThatTurkeyStory> im not advocating making Go into C++, im advocating
being able to do generic programming in a way much better than C++
05:41 < ThatTurkeyStory> i suppose i disagree :/
05:41 < Ycros> kaib: they are, and it makes code nicer and statically
typechecked
05:42 < uriel> ThatTurkeyStory: I'm sorry, but I have much trouble taking
very seriously suggestions from people that have not used the language at all
05:42 < ThatTurkeyStory> to me, generic programming is fundamental to how
libraries are developed
05:42 < ThatTurkeyStory> uriel, i have played with the language i am just
aching for generic programming support
05:42 < Ycros> kaib: I see no reason why map should be the special case
compared to the other container classes for example
05:42 < uriel> ThatTurkeyStory: well, tons of people apparently have no
trouble building libraries without it, as the quite considerable set of libraries
already existing in Go demonstrates
05:43 < ThatTurkeyStory> no one is saying you can't make libraries
05:43 < toft> kaib: since you seem to know what's up with the design, like
Ycros i am also curious why parametrized types are only allowed in these special
cases
05:43 < ThatTurkeyStory> better supporting generic programming means making
more powerful libraries feasible
05:43 < Eridius> huh, os.Lstat() returns an Error.  Is there any way to get
information from it, like, say, the underlying errno?
05:43 < ThatTurkeyStory> uriel are you a user of Go or someone working on
developing Go itself?
05:44 < uriel> ThatTurkeyStory: and somebody will claim that opperator
overloading does the same, that doesn't mean it is a good idea
05:44 < Ycros> ThatTurkeyStory: well, I don't think it makes more powerful
libraries feasible, but it certainly makes for cleaner code for users of libraries
05:44 < uriel> ThatTurkeyStory: I'm just a buffoon
05:44 <+kaib> i think you guys are giving me too much credit, but i can try
to state my own personal view (i've done the 5g compiler and used go for about a
year, but am not directly involved with the design)
05:45 < toft> kaib: sure, that's all that i'm expecting anyway :)
05:45 < ThatTurkeyStory> i disagree to an extent.  i do believe that better
support for generic programming makes powerful libraries more feasible
05:45 < Eridius> ah hah, os.PathError
05:45 <+kaib> i just read the comments by ThatTurkeyStory on the post by rsc
and i'm assuming he represents some general notion of what generics could be.
05:46 < ThatTurkeyStory> sorry, let me clarify.  when i say generic
programming i mean the paradigm
05:46 < ThatTurkeyStory> as in the notion of concepts, models of concepts,
refinement, etc.
05:47 < Ycros> Eridius: yeah, the fact that things return the generic error
interface is an annoyance to me (though there is a reason behind it)
05:47 <+kaib> so, i've used boost quite extensively (including boost.graph)
and i'm semi familiar with the generic programming paradigm.  i think i've read
stephanov but i might have forgotten.
05:47 < ThatTurkeyStory> his book just came out in june i believe
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05:47 < Ycros> ThatTurkeyStory: so you're not talking about generics
specifically?
05:47 <+kaib> ok, i'm confusing him with some earlier representative then,
the name sounds familiar.
05:48 < ThatTurkeyStory> he designed the STL
05:48 < ThatTurkeyStory> so thats probably why the name is familiar
05:48 <+kaib> it all boils down to tradeoffs.  generic programming buys you
something, but you have to pay for it in language and implementation complexity.
05:48 < ThatTurkeyStory> yeah
05:49 < ThatTurkeyStory> Ycros: not specifically, more like the support for
"concepts" that was going to be in the next C++ standard
05:49 <+kaib> if you take a look at the gc toolchain you'll note that 6g is
about 33k lines of code.  that's pretty tiny for a compiler.
05:50 <+kaib> you'll also note that the language and grammar are quite
manageable.
05:50 < ThatTurkeyStory> yes
05:51 < Ycros> ThatTurkeyStory: hang on, I'm not quite sure what they are
05:51 < ThatTurkeyStory> Ycros: are you familiar with the STL at all?  its
easiest to describe in those terms if you do
05:52 < Ycros> ThatTurkeyStory: yes.  I have used templates in C++ as well,
and generics in C# and Java.
05:52 <+kaib> i understand that the benefits of generics are somewhat
subjective in face of no large scale quantitative study (that i know of) but at
least in my experience it's not clear that they provide a significant boost to
either understanding or performance in go.
05:53 < jdp> the only argument i have for generics is not having to write a
separate wrapper for container/vector every time i want to make a vector of a
certain type
05:53 < jdp> unless im using it wrong
05:53 < Ycros> ThatTurkeyStory: I'm reading an article
05:53 < ThatTurkeyStory> right.  you know how theres the "idea" in the STL
of forward iterators, bidirectional iterators, random access iterators, etc.  and
they have separate associtaed types such as the value type of what they refer to
etc?
05:53 < uriel> jdp: you can use interface {}
05:53 <+kaib> sure.  but generalizing that doesn't necessarily improve
things.
05:53 < Ycros> kaib: you have to perform manual unboxing if you don't have
generics
05:54 < ThatTurkeyStory> "forward iterator" for example is a "concept." it
specifies an interface for operations, the complexity of those operations, and
associated datatypes with it
05:54 < Ycros> kaib: generics just mean nicer code (okay, it gets trickier
than that when it comes to run time type information and the actual
implementation)
05:54 <+kaib> Ycros: true, but i find myself mostly using slices anyway.
05:54 < Ycros> uriel: yes, and then you need to manually unbox.  Generics
would get rid of that
05:54 < uriel> no other language has interfaces like Go does, people that
claim they are not enough clearly haven't had the time to even become faimiliar
enough with the idea to even have judgement
05:54 < Ycros> map is already a generic type
05:54 < ThatTurkeyStory> but in the current c++ standard those "concepts" do
not have direct language support
05:55 < Ycros> kaib: I'm not sure what you mean by "using slices"
05:55 <+kaib> Ycros: yes it is, but it's not clear everything needs to be.
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05:55 < uriel> Ycros: I don't think it is an issue really, at least it has
not been for me, and until I see more real evidence of the contrary, I would not
pay with extra language and implementation complexity to paper over that rather
minor issue IMHO
05:56 <+kaib> Ycros: v := make([]int, 0, 100)
05:56 < Ycros> uriel: manual unboxing is annoying, and map is a generic type
already - which I feel is inconsistent
05:56 < Ycros> uriel: you should be able to write your own containers that
are as nice to use as the built-in map
05:57 < Ycros> kaib: sure, but then when you want to grow it - you use a
Vector or a List
05:57 < goplexian> How do you receive input from the command line in a
running program.
05:57 < uriel> Ycros: it is not inconsistent, maps, arrays, slices, etc are
built in, vectors are not, and to be honest, I have not had much need for vectors
either, as kaib mentioned, slices are usually enough
05:57 <+kaib> Ycros: my experience has been that when i need a specialized
container for some reason (like a highly performant fibonacci heap or something)
it's always for a single occasion.
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05:57 < Ycros> kaib: I don't know, I often have "I need to store an unknown
about of blah" problems
05:57 <+kaib> Ycros: sure it grows.  it just has a predefined maximum
boundary for how large it can grow.
05:59 < uriel> kaib: that is another very good point, if you need a
specialized container, it is for a specialized type in a specialized situation, so
generics don't buy you anything
05:59 < Ycros> ThatTurkeyStory: so concepts are like constraints placed on
the types used in instantiating a template?
06:00 < Ycros> kaib: yeah, but I don't often find it useful to have a
maximum boundary
06:00 < ThatTurkeyStory> yes.  with direct support they also play a roll in
choosing which functions get dispatched
06:00 <+kaib> Ycros: you always have in the form of available memory ..  :-)
06:00 < Ycros> uriel: genercs buy you cleaner code
06:01 < Ycros> ThatTurkeyStory: so it's similar to C#'s constraints
06:01 < Ycros> ThatTurkeyStory: except it looks complex and messy (as most
of C++ )
06:01 < uriel> Ycros: no they don't, if you need to write a custom
container, it will be for a custom type, so generics don't buy *anything*
06:01 < ThatTurkeyStory> a really basic example of this is std::advance.  it
works with any forward iterator but if you pass it a random access iterator it
will advance in constant time
06:01 < Ycros> ThatTurkeyStory: the way I would approach it in Go, is to
simply be able to specify that a parameter for a type needs to be a certain
interface
06:01 < Ycros> ThatTurkeyStory: and I think that's enough
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06:02 < ThatTurkeyStory> Ycros: not exactly, it's all statically typed and
it's only messy if you are trying to i.e.  hack it onto C++ :p
06:02 < Ycros> ThatTurkeyStory:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/d5x73970.aspx
06:02 < Ycros> ThatTurkeyStory: that is C#'s constraints
06:02 < ThatTurkeyStory> yes i am familiar
06:02 < Ycros> imo, C# has the nicest generics implementation
06:03 <+kaib> Ycros: can you give a more specific example of where you need
to store unbounded amounts of different types?  one that has really bothered you
with go?
06:03 < ThatTurkeyStory> it's not bad, its just not as capable
06:03 < Ycros> uriel: yes, but what if you want a custom container that's
generic
06:03 < Ycros> uriel: you can store interface{}, but it'd be nicer if you
got static typechecking and automatic unboxing with that
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06:04 * kuroneko sighs
06:04 < uriel> Ycros: and what if you want pink unicorns?  Go *needs* pink
unicorns
06:04 < ThatTurkeyStory> Ycros:
http://www.osl.iu.edu/publications/prints/2003/comparing_generic_programming03.pdf
is a really great rundown of the strengths of different approaches to generic
programming.  it really helps if you've used the boost graph library
06:05 < uriel> (with wings, and that can breathe underwater too)
06:05 < ThatTurkeyStory> these aren't magical creatures, these are
fundamentals
06:05 < Ycros> uriel: yes, it does ;)
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06:06 < Ycros> kaib: I have a simple xml generator library I've written in
Go, I have a Node struct, which stores children nodes, as well as attributes.
Attributes are natually a map (which, hey, grows!) and Children are currently a
List
06:06 < ThatTurkeyStory> regardless of your religious hatred of C++ i find
it hard to believe that you simply don't see the power of libraries like that.
the point is you can do it without C++ templates, however C# style generic
programming for example is still a stretch and not as capable
06:07 < Ycros> kaib: I see no reason to artificially limit the size of the
Children field
06:08 < ThatTurkeyStory> the point is you can do it much better and much
simpler than C++ templates
06:08 < ThatTurkeyStory> Go interfaces are not that far away
06:08 <+kaib> Ycros: so i'm assuming you expect the total count of children
to be somewhere in the range of 10-15?
06:09 < Ycros> kaib: I don't expect them to be anything, that's up to the
users of my generic library
06:09 < Ycros> I've seen gigantic xml documents (horrible, I know) in the
past
06:09 < Ycros> so, a growable container makes sense
06:10 < Ycros> whether that be a List or a Vector
06:10 < Ycros> I have many cases like this in real programs that I write
06:10 <+kaib> Ycros: what does your interface look like?  it sounds like you
are exporting data structures through the interface?
06:10 < Eridius> oh damn, os.Dir.Name only contains the basename of the
file?
06:11 < Ycros> kaib: I do wrap the Children list in my own
AddChild/DeleteChild/HasChild/etc.  methods
06:11 < Ycros> which is where I do the unboxing
06:11 < Ycros> I also wrap the Iter with my own
06:12 <+kaib> Ycros: what service does your xml library provide?  just
parsing or something else?  did you look at the blog post rsc had about using
reflection to parse directly into structures?
06:12 < Ycros> it's not parsing, it's generation
06:12 < Ycros> parsing is in the go standard library already, I know.
06:12 * kaib slaps himself.
06:12 <+kaib> Ycros: ok, point still there, why do you expose the
intermediate xml representation?
06:13 < Ycros> kaib: not sure what you mean by that.  I'm going to write a
reflection-based serialiser on top probably
06:13 < Ycros> I want to implement an XMLRPC client
06:14 < uriel> Ycros: if it is a generator, why do you need to expose the
list at all?  just pee a private array, and if it runs out of space, allocate a
bigger one
06:14 < Ycros> uriel: yes, that is exactly what the Vector struct is for
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06:15 < Ycros> or a List
06:15 <+kaib> Ycros: ok.  so the source data structure knows it's sizes
already, right.  so if you want to avoid the internal unboxing for performance
reasons you might make the interface look like: func CreateNode(numChildren int)
Node;
06:16 <+kaib> Ycros: that would always be more performant than any
dynamically growing list.
06:16 <+kaib> Ycros: now func AddChildren can just insert them into the
pre-allocated storage in constant time.
06:17 < uriel> Ycros: in any case, aren't those your own types?  so what is
the problem then as you are only storing one type, use a vector then
06:17 < uriel> (or use your own arrays, up to you)
06:17 < Ycros> kaib: yes, you could do it that way
06:19 < Ycros> okay, why do IntVector and StringVector exist in the standard
library?  With generics, both those can go away
06:19 <+kaib> Ycros: i think the core thing i'm trying to understand is what
you are trying to optimize for.
06:19 <+kaib> Ycros: while it's useful to speculate about the language, but
i'd like to help make the existing code you have as good as possible.
06:19 < Ycros> kaib: code read/writeability with generics
06:20 < Ycros> I want to type less, and achive more, with more safety where
possible
06:20 <+kaib> Ycros: is this example code or code destined for production
servers?
06:20 < kuroneko> kaib: all code is production code - nobody actually ever
gets around to rewriting that proof of concept.
06:20 < jessta> typing is easy, and fast and copy paste is pretty good at
generics
06:21 < jessta> what you want is to read less, not type less
06:21 < jessta> typing has never been a bottleneck in programming
06:21 < Ycros> jessta: I want less of both
06:21 < Ycros> but they are related, since if you type less, you'll have
less to read :)
06:21 < kuroneko> I actually strongly disagree with the copy-pasta
methodology - it means you need to track every instance you copy/pasted and update
it when you discover that you've introduced a bug
06:22 <+kaib> kuroneko: heh..  talk about it ..
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06:22 < Ycros> kaib: look, IntVector and StringVector, in the Go standard
library.  All that code will go away with generics
06:22 < jessta> I only see generics as useful for containers
06:22 < jessta> I reckon these containers should be built in
06:22 < uriel> Ycros: you don't want a ponny too?
06:22 < Ycros> plus, all the _manual_ typechecking code in people using the
base Vector, List and so on classes goes away
06:22 < Ycros> why should I do more typing
06:22 < Ycros> for something that the compiler can do
06:23 < Ycros> and better yet, can catch errors in at compile time
06:23 < Ycros> go should be simple, not filled with boilerplate code
06:23 < jessta> list, map, vector, etc.  as built-ins similar to how map
doesn't it's generics
06:23 < kuroneko> s/go/a language/
06:24 < kuroneko> I won't argue that it's go's job to do this, maybe it's
go's next cousin's job?
06:24 <+kaib> Ycros: ok, i'm probably not aligned with what you want.  in
your particular case, if his was production code i would accept the current
unboxing or if performance was more important i would go with the fixed size
version.
06:25 <+kaib> Ycros: but my viewpoint is very limited, the software we write
at work is somewhat specialized.
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06:26 < Ycros> right.  I probably wouldn't go to those sorts of performance
optimisations right away.
06:26 < uriel> kaib: all software is specialized, software that tries to be
extremely generic (pun not intended ;P) and do everything for everyone always
sucks
06:27 < Ycros> uriel: re-usable libraries are fantastic
06:27 <+kaib> Ycros: the only thing i can really add is that i've read
through a million or so lines of C++ and your compared to the bad code i've seen
your particular unboxing case wouldn't be that much of an issue..
06:27 < uriel> Ycros: in the programming industry more harm has been done in
the name of code reuse than anything else, except perhaps needless optimization
06:28 < uriel> the best libraries are small, specialized and very narrowly
focused
06:28 < kuroneko> actually, I'd just stick with small.
06:29 < kuroneko> There's a fundamental sort of rule:
06:29 < kuroneko> The less code you have to write, the less bugs there will
be.
06:29 < Ycros> small is good, small means you've modularised well
06:29 < uriel> kuroneko: that too, but that is only a small part of the
benefit of small specialized tools
06:30 < kuroneko> it applies to more than just tools
06:30 < uriel> Ycros: many crimes are committed too in the name of
'modularity' (and even worse 'flexibility')
06:30 < Ycros> uriel: like unix?
06:30 < uriel> kuroneko: everything is in a way a 'tool', as long as it has
a purpose
06:30 < jessta> kuroneko: it really depends on how complex that small about
of code it
06:30 < kuroneko> uriel: I'm going to call BS on you again - start
justifying your point through examples and argument, not dictum.
06:31 < uriel> Ycros: unix originally got it precisely right, sed, grep and
friends are the greatest example of software design
06:31 < Ycros> uriel: therein lies modularity
06:31 < uriel> then the BSD and GNU monkeys took over and werecked the whole
thing
06:31 < kuroneko> so far you're regurgitating an extrapolation of a view
from a single paper
06:31 < Ycros> what I've sadly seen in software in the "Real World" is a
lack of correct modularity
06:32 < uriel> Ycros: the modularity in unix lies on the 1) simplicity 2)
specialization (do one thing and do it well) 3) everything is text
06:32 < kuroneko> jessta: if it's "complex", it's not a small amount of
code.
06:32 <+kaib> ok folks, i need to head for some rest.  anything else i can
help with before i go?  it seems you all are quite enjoying the generics
conversation without me ..  :-)
06:32 < Ycros> uriel: those are the keys to modularity (well, except the
last)
06:32 < ThatTurkeyStory> im just sad
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06:32 < uriel> kaib: hehe, thanks for your help and comments
06:32 < ThatTurkeyStory> is there a mailing list or something specifically
concerning language design?
06:32 * kaib hands ThatTurkeyStory a gingerbread cookie (my wife just baked some)
06:33 < kuroneko> later kaib.
06:33 < ThatTurkeyStory> thanks!
06:33 < Ycros> ThatTurkeyStory: I think there's probably a usenet group or
two
06:33 < ThatTurkeyStory> i mean with respect to Go
06:33 <+kaib> ThatTurkeyStory: golang-nuts is the main list, commenting on
rsc's blog post is probably the best way for generics.
06:33 < uriel> Ycros: golang-nuts in google groups
06:33 < ThatTurkeyStory> i really want to talk with or at least listen in to
the language designers
06:33 < uriel> sorry, that was for ThatTurkeyStory
06:33 < ThatTurkeyStory> okay cool, thanks
06:33 * uriel needs to sleep too, 7am here :(
06:34 <+kaib> uriel: you are a swede, aren't you?
06:34 < Ycros> uriel: so I wrote this XML generator as part of my XMLRPC
project.  Did I just roll it into my project?  Hell no, I'm building it as a
separate library, because it's generic and could be useful elsewhere.  Code
re-use.  I'm not going to re-write that.
06:34 < uriel> kaib: no, I'm not, but I'm sweden :)
06:34 < uriel> kaib: why do you ask?
06:34 <+kaib> uriel: god natt!  ;-) (night to everyone else)
06:35 < uriel> hehe, thanks, good night!
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06:37 < Jerub> Ycros: actually..  xmlrpc isn't really xml :(
06:38 < Jerub> Ycros: xmlrpc spec specifically requires that it be xml 1.0,
but then goes on to allow invalid things between tags (with no encoding allowed)
such as null characters and \x1b.
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06:40 < Ycros> Jerub: I'm not trying to output xml really
06:40 < Ycros> Jerub: just enough to do what I need to do and run away
06:40 < Jerub> or parse it, clearly.  :P
06:41 < Ycros> well, go has a parser
06:41 < Ycros> as long as it handles it :P
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06:41 < Ycros> it's not by choice I'm using xmlrpc, it's just what the
program I'm trying to interface with uses
06:41 < Ycros> and I thought it'd be a nice exercise for learning the
language
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06:47 < uriel> Ycros: maybe it is a stupid idea, but have you thought of
using the tamplate system to generate the xml?
06:48 < Ycros> uriel: yes, that was my first thought, but it's too unwieldy
for what I'm doing
06:48 < Ycros> I'm not filling in blanks, I'm generating a whole structure
06:48 < Ycros> xmlrpc lets you send a number of parameters, and each
parameter can be a struct or a value type of some sort
06:49 < Ycros> so they can be recursively defined.  I mean, I could use
templates recursivelp
06:49 < Ycros> y
06:49 < Ycros> but I thought it'd be nice to just have an api to generate an
XML document
06:49 < Ycros> ideally though
06:49 < Ycros> we'd have the parser in go's library spitting out some
xml-like structs and the generator would work off those same ones
06:50 < Ycros> and the reflection stuff for reading things in-out of custom
user defined structs would be on top of those
06:50 < uriel> Ycros: I still think the templates system should be mostly be
capable of dealing with that, but I'm not familiar with the details
06:50 < Ycros> I'm pretty sure the current parser in the stdlib goes
straight to reflection without any intermediate representation
06:50 < uriel> (nesting and so on)
06:51 < Ycros> yeah you could.
06:51 < Ycros> someone else wrote a much nicer xml library, so I'll probably
ditch my code for his though
06:53 < Jerub> Ycros: as i said earlier, not a good idea, because xmlrpc
doesn't actually use xml, it just looks VERY similar.
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08:10 < Maxdamantus> On the tutorial, why are the return values "declared"
for functions with multiple return values?
08:10 < Maxdamantus> Read(b []byte) (ret int, err os.Error);
08:10 < Maxdamantus> Shouldn't it just be Read(b []byte) (int, os.Error)?
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08:16 < jdp> Maxdamantus: while in the body of the function, you can treat
those declared variables like you had declared them yourself
08:16 < jdp> then you also don't need to explicitly return them, instead of
return ret, err; you just call return;
08:17 < Maxdamantus> Ah. So that's the only advantage?
08:17 < Maxdamantus> So I'd presume it does work without them then?  func
foo() (int, int){return 42, 1337}
08:17 < jdp> yeah that would work fine
08:18 < Maxdamantus> Thanks.
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08:19 < Maxdamantus> Also..  (I'll try writing some stuff once I've read the
full tutorial, so understand the concepts better) I notice all the ifs etc in the
tut have the braces around the nested code blocks..  Is that necessary?
08:20 < Maxdamantus> Hm. I think it'd probably be kinda awkward having
something like..  if a == 5 b = 6
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08:21 < Maxdamantus> Maybe if it's parenthesised it won't mind, since iirc
you can leave out the semicolon after a ) so might be similar.
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08:22 < Maxdamantus> Oh wait no, I'm thinking of } :\
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08:33 < uriel> Maxdamantus: braces are required
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09:08 < Eridius> What's the zero value for a string variable?
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09:27 < dagle> Eridius: I would say "" or nil.  Depending on what you are
going to do.
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09:28 < dagle> Eridius: You want to check if a string is set or not?
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09:35 < jessta> Eridius: I think it's nil,
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09:37 < dagle> jessta: Is it really?  Because a string i a type in go and
not a array of chars.
09:38 < dagle> I think it is "".
09:38 < dagle> I will test.
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09:42 < dagle> Eridius: It is indeed "".  If you want to check if its nil
use a pointer.
09:42 < rog> i don't think you can test a string against nil
09:43 < dagle> rog: You can have a pointer to a string and check if thats
nil.
09:44 < rog> of course, just like you can have a pointer to anything and
check if that's nil...
09:44 < dagle> :)
09:50 < rog> > print("hello" == nil)
09:50 < rog> hmm, bot doesn't seem to be around...
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10:50 < scoeri> are there any compiler flags i can turn on for optimization?
10:51 < jessta> nope
10:52 < jessta> optimise your code for optimisations
10:53 < scoeri> yeah, screw maintainability, i should inline all my
accessors myself
10:56 < uriel> scoeri: what is too slow?
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10:56 < JBeshir> scoeri: Wait, you're trying to tell me that a very very new
language doesn't have optimising stuff yet?
10:56 < JBeshir> scoeri: Hold on, I might need to make a blog post about
this, this is valuable news the world should know.
10:57 < jessta> scoeri: go will inline things that should be inlined
10:57 < uriel> or you just want a compiler flag that says
--magic-stuff-that-makes-an-infinite-loop-end-in-two seconds
10:58 < jessta> I like how the elitism in the community has grown up to
quickly
10:58 < jessta> *so
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11:01 < scoeri> uriel: well i ported my interperter written in C to go
(using mosly regexpses)
11:01 < scoeri> about 5600 lines of go
11:02 < scoeri> and a quicksort of 500000 elements takes 5sec for the C
version and 90 sec in the go version
11:02 < scoeri> which is a bit dissapointing
11:02 < JBeshir> Is it in-place?
11:02 < scoeri> i guess with som manual optimisations i can drive that
number a bit back
11:03 < scoeri> yeah
11:04 < scoeri> but its not the algoritm itself that is important, because
thats twice the same code
11:05 < JBeshir> Given Go's garbage collector is kinda slow right now, it
would matter if it was making and destroying lots of variables.
11:05 < JBeshir> (That's a known point with a new much faster one in the
works)
11:05 < jessta> scoeri: what are you sorting?
11:05 < JBeshir> What else, hmm.  Regexes are slow.
11:06 < JBeshir> But that shouldn't affect the sort itself, right?
11:06 < scoeri> JBeshir: i meant i transformed my C code to go using rexexes
11:06 < scoeri> *regexes
11:06 < JBeshir> Ah.
11:08 < scoeri> but the garbage collecter is an interesting point though, im
just trying to find ways to optimize my code
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11:12 < scoeri> JBeshir: actually, i cant even tell if go is creating a lot
of variables, because the quicksort is written in my language "pico" which i
interpret with go
11:14 < scoeri> perhaps there is a profiler for go?
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11:19 < rog> is anyone else here using go on a mac?
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11:34 < rog> is the compiler with the new semicolon rules available yet?
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11:42 < uriel> scoeri: the regexp library is just a placeholder, the perf
problem is not on the compiler but on the regexplib
11:43 < uriel> scoeri: you don't need a profiler to know all the time is
wasted on the regexp lib
11:44 < uriel> (just last week rob made a couple of simple optimization that
got a magnitude perf improvement, that kind of shows you how unoptimized it is,
and from what i have heard the plans is to replace it completely eventually)
11:49 < uriel> scoeri: if you want a really ugly hack to make things fast
right away, there are bindings for pcre somewhere in
http://go-lang.cat-v.org/library-bindings
11:49 < JBeshir> uriel: He said he used regexes to convert from C to Go, not
in the interpreter.
11:49 < uriel> oh, sorry, uh
11:50 < uriel> fuck, I should have gone to sleep like twelve hours ago!  :)
11:50 < JBeshir> XD
11:52 < uriel> rog: I don't think the compilers with the new semicolon rules
are out yet, but better don't trust me, specially in this state ;)
11:52 < uriel> rog: just check the changelog
11:52 < rog> what state's that, then?
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11:53 < uriel> badly sleep deprived
11:53 < uriel> not that anyone should trust me even when I have been
sleeping properly either, but..
11:53 < rog> :-)
11:54 < uriel> there are still some posts from russ in 9fans about how
useless irc is and jmk saying that most things said here are just nonsense :)
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11:55 < rog> it's probably not entirely untrue :-)
11:55 < JBeshir> To be fair, that applies to the mailing list, too.
11:56 < JBeshir> And I've seen less of people calling them stupid or making
excuses for the lack of exceptions.  :P
11:56 < rog> it probably applies to all human speech everywhere
11:57 < uriel> rog: I didn't say it was not true :)
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12:39 < aep> greetings.  could go be used for dynamic webpages (stuff you'd
use rails for)
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14:30 < booh> hi #go-nuts !
14:30 < JPascal> hi
14:31 < booh>
http://tav.espians.com/twitter-golang-list-go-mirror-on-github.html
14:31 < alexsuraci> aep: yes
14:32 < alexsuraci> see http://gopaste.org/ (http://github.com/vito/go-play
in "gopaste")
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16:15 < toft> is there a way to iterate through all elements of a map?
16:17 < toft> nevermind, got it
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17:45 < JPascal> hi
17:45 < JPascal> iant: are you here?  :)
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17:51 < JPascal> Why I get not static linked binary file?
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18:21 <+iant> JPascal: I am here now
18:21 < ukl> Hello.  Given I want to implement a tree structure (an
(a,b)-tree to be exact), how do I have to craft its type in Go?
18:21 < xerox> :t \amb -> \x -> (amb >>=) . flip ($)
18:21 < xerox> wrong window
18:21 < JPascal> iant: Look at this http://pastebin.com/m66ec7244
18:22 < ukl> my problem is, in order to properly define the type, it has to
refer to a list of pointers to itself, like []*abTree -- but what about the
leaves?
18:22 < ukl> either they are somehow crippled abTree structs or something
else, like, *int, but I can't wrap my mind around how to point towards them,
then...
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18:23 <+iant> JPascal: I assume you are using cgo in there somewhere?
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18:23 <+iant> ukl: you want something which you would express in C as a
union?
18:23 < ukl> (crippled meaning no more pointers, no mentions of the maximum
elements of subtrees attached to them, some way of saving the value they carry)
18:24 < JPascal> iant: I have a any binded C functions..
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18:24 < JPascal> Obviously I do not use cgo
18:24 <+iant> JPascal: can you paste index.go?
18:25 < JPascal> yes, wait
18:25 < ukl> iant: maybe...  I think that's what I want...  like "type Tree
= Tree | Leaf" in Haskell
18:25 <+iant> ukl: Go doesn't support that kind of type yet, though there
has been some discussion of it
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18:25 <+iant> you have to use an interface or have unused fields in your
struct
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18:26 < ukl> iant: an interface?  oh, I haven't thought this feature would
fit here...  need to have a closer look, thanks for the pointer
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18:26 < JPascal> iant: http://pastebin.com/m3546d6f7
18:27 <+iant> JPascal: you have a bunch of imports in there; what is libcgi?
18:28 <+iant> if it is a wrapper around the usual libcgi, then you are using
cgo
18:28 < JPascal> It is my lib.  Pure go lang...
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18:28 <+iant> OK, then I don't know; if I link without cgo, ldd shows the
binary as statically linked
18:28 < JPascal> hm..
18:29 < JPascal> wait...  i found.
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18:30 < JPascal> Look at line 13.  import ("./modules/proxy").  Paste...
18:32 < JPascal> I think I found a problem.  Go to check..
18:32 < JPascal> Sorry for my english.  I from russia )
18:33 < ptolomy2> http://pastie.org/739329 <-- fun time duration package.
18:35 < skelterjohn> anyone remember off their heads how to indicate
infinity in an int type?
18:35 <+iant> skelterjohn: you can't, except by introducing your own
convention
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18:36 < skelterjohn> err, really?  can you with float type?
18:36 <+iant> skelterjohn: yes, a float type has a representation for
infinity
18:36 < skelterjohn> ah ok that's what i was remembering, then
18:37 <+iant> you can get it using math.Inf(1)
18:37 < skelterjohn> right, thanks
18:41 < Rob_Russell> ptolomy2: nice bit of utility.  you should host it
somewhere (github, googlecode, etc).
18:41 < Rob_Russell> ptolomy2: if you add GoString() methods to your types
then people can printf them with the %#v format
18:43 < ptolomy2> Ooh.  Good to know.
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18:44 < Rob_Russell> ukl: i don't know if it's mature enough to help with
your tree structure but i've been working on a toy app with a generic graph
structure at http://code.google.com/p/goraphing/
18:44 < Rob_Russell> ukl: you might find some code that helps you decide
what to do (or what not to do :) )
18:44 < ptolomy2> Rob_Russell: It's not really fully-baked enough for me to
try to make it a hosted something something.  It's halfway between a general units
thing and a time thing.  Maybe after I've tried to use it in a few context and
found what parts aren't needed, I'll put it somewhere useful.
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18:46 < Rob_Russell> ptolomy2: sure.  i find it helps me to get it in to
version control early, makes life easier.  doesn't work for everybody though
18:46 < Rob_Russell> ptolomy2: (but mostly i was thinking that when i want
to use your code in a couple days i'll have forgotten where it was :) )
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18:53 < pinkmexican> I'm trying to figure out how to "extend" a custom named
map type with my own properties and methods.  This doesn't work:
http://pastie.org/739365 . I'd appreciate any help.
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19:08 < Rob_Russell> pinkmexican: here's an example from my code
http://pastie.org/739395
19:08 < Rob_Russell> very similar to what you want i think
19:08 < Rob_Russell> oh but you want to add fields to it
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19:11 < Rob_Russell> best you can do, afaik, is to include a map as a member
of Order (which would then need to be a struct).  You would not be able to use []
notation directly on Order if that's what you're looking for
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19:11 < pinkmexican> Apparently you can't add fields to any primitive type.
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19:12 < Rob_Russell> right
19:12 < pinkmexican> I can work my way around it, but it would have been
nice.  Thx!
19:12 < Rob_Russell> np
19:13 < skelterjohn> There was something on the ML at one point suggesting
the ability to define properties for arbitrary types in the same way that you
defined functions
19:14 < skelterjohn> like "type MyInt int; prop (MyInt) m sync.Mutex"
19:14 < skelterjohn> could built up a lightweight threadsafe counter that
way, for example
19:14 < skelterjohn> I forget what the team's response to it was
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19:17 < skelterjohn> or (one of the issues i've probably been irritating
about) threadsafe channels
19:18 < skelterjohn> you define a channel type that has attached to it a
mutex, and also define safe read and write functions
19:18 < uriel> thread safe channels?  uhu?  now that makes zero sense to me
19:19 < fgb> hey hey hey
19:20 < fgb> so, you the channel is locked and no one can recieve!
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19:25 < skelterjohn> not exactly what i meant =p
19:25 < skelterjohn> talking about a channel that has multiple readers
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19:26 < skelterjohn> if one of them does "<-ch, closed(ch)", gets a zero
and the channel is closed, how do they know if the value they got was a zero that
was sent or a zero that was the "closed" value?
19:26 < skelterjohn> in between the channel read and the call to closed,
another thread could have done the same thing
19:27 < skelterjohn> one way to do this safely is to surround the
"<-ch,closed(ch)" by a mutex associated with the channel
19:30 < skelterjohn> range ch is not threadsafe for the same reason
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19:32 < dho> that's a bummer
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19:37 < skelterjohn> heh.  And I think I pissed off Russ Cox by posting
about it and related issues too much on the ML.
19:38 < skelterjohn> he told me (in a polite way) to stfu, I think
19:38 < dagle> Hehe.
19:38 < dho> he's got a good way of doing that :)
19:38 < dho> I like Russ
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19:38 < dho> He's a really smart and helpful guy
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21:12 < skelterjohn> anyone know what the issue is in the ML thread "Using
pointers to values in maps"?
http://groups.google.com/group/golang-nuts/browse_frm/thread/bb39a3e8a5336eaa
21:12 < skelterjohn> I can't figure it out.
21:13 < skelterjohn> nevermind
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21:40 <+iant> ah, we have a syslog package now
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21:43 < KirkMcDonald> I wonder if I should duplicate Python's "logging"
package for my next project...
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21:44 < anticw> iant: are their pending parser changes for gccgo wrt to
semicolons?
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21:44 <+iant> anticw: I haven't written them yet, no
21:44 < KirkMcDonald> Having both 'log' and 'syslog' packages seems
redundant.
21:44 <+iant> I think syslog implements the Logger interface, it just sends
to syslog
21:45 < KirkMcDonald> Ah.
21:45 < dho> oh yeah, gccgo for freebsd
21:45 < dho> i keep forgetting about that.
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21:50 < dho_> i hate netsplits.
21:50 < JBeshir> Me too.
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21:57 < KirkMcDonald> The default handler just writes to stderr, but it has
many others, including appending to a file, and the syslog.
21:57 <+iant> this channel gets a lot of netsplits
21:58 < KirkMcDonald> Freenode does, yes.
21:58 <+iant> KirkMcDonald: sounds like a generally good idea
21:58 < KirkMcDonald> Especially lately, for some reason.
21:58 < KirkMcDonald> I've used it extensively, in Python stuff.
21:58 < toadie> i've noticed that too
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22:01 < uriel> iant: the thing with this channel is that its got a ton of
people in it :)
22:01 < JBeshir> The thing with this channel is that it's on Freenode.
22:01 < JBeshir> :P
22:02 < KirkMcDonald> Freenode?
22:02 < KirkMcDonald> Never heard of it.
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22:04 < skelterjohn> well, two problems.  netsplits occur (freenode's
fault), and netsplits spam the window into oblivion (ton of people).
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22:06 < KirkMcDonald> Not in irssi.
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22:13 < skelterjohn> I have yet to figure out how to tell my client
(colloquy on os x) how to ignore join/leave messages
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22:14 < dho> KirkMcDonald: does on my irssi
22:14 < dho> KirkMcDonald: depends on how well it detects the netsplit
22:14 < skelterjohn> I think what my client should do is group any
sequential join/leave messages together onto one line that, if i want to, i can
expand
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22:46 < nwatkins> I have got a map from int->list.List (i.e.  map[int]
list.List).  I'm having difficulties initializing the list elements of the map.
For example, mymap[3].Init();
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22:54 < fluffle> nwatkins: i suspect the map valuse aren't autovivified for
you, e.g.  you need to do: mymap[3] = make(list.List); mymap[3].Init();
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22:56 < nwatkins> fluffle: that produces test.go:12: cannot make type
list.List
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22:57 < nwatkins> http://pastebin.com/d6b43dc3d
22:57 < fluffle> oh
22:58 < fluffle> maybe i mean new()
22:58 < nwatkins> new will produce type *list.List
22:58 < fluffle> though that'll return a pointer rather than the actual List
22:59 < nwatkins> calling zr[3].Init() seems more natural.  The Init() call
takes type *list.List, however, it seems that it is forbidden to take the address
of a map element.
22:59 < dho> maps are supposed to be initialized with make, yes
22:59 < nwatkins> that map is already initialized.  the type stored in the
map is not initialized.
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23:05 < fluffle> nwatkins: i'm intrigued as to why you're storing map[int]
list.List rather than map[int] *list.List
23:06 < fluffle> if all of the list.List methods expect to work on the
pointer rather than the actual list itself
23:07 < nwatkins> fluffle: My original solution used *list.List +
new(list.List) and works fine.  However, that introduces a new level of memory
indirection.  Plus, the language doesn't _seem_ to disallow what I'm trying to do
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23:08 < fluffle> nwatkins: oh noes.  maybe that'll alllow the compiler to be
more clever about where it puts your actual list elements
23:08 < fluffle> if pointers were slow, people would have abandoned them as
a concept years ago
23:10 < nwatkins> Pointers are not slow, 100's of billions of dereferences
add up (for a total computation), and aren't you curious about the original
problem?
23:11 < fluffle> *cough* I must admit i've not looked at your pastebin post
:)
23:11 < nwatkins> Hehe
23:12 < nwatkins> No big deal.  My long running computation (> 500
billion) map look-ups runs a slower than C, and this is one culprit
23:13 < fluffle> wow, that's a lot of computation.  how much slower than C,
out of interest
23:13 < skelterjohn> can you repost the pastebin?  I just signed in.
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23:14 < fluffle> nwatkins: looking at the source for container/list, all of
the methods expect you to be working with a pointer to a list.List, not the actual
object
23:14 < fluffle> nwatkins: i suspect you might have to implement your own
container object for it to work
23:15 < nwatkins> Mmm, good idea.
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23:17 < skelterjohn> aha - that makes sense - maybe that's why the
zr[3].Init() stuff didn't work
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23:43 < skelterjohn> is there a way to get command-line hg to remember my
login/password?
23:45 <+iant> skelterjohn: you can add an auth section to ~/.hgrc
23:46 <+iant> My .hgrc looks like this:
23:46 <+iant> [ui]
23:46 <+iant> username = Ian Lance Taylor <iant@golang.org>
23:46 <+iant> [auth]
23:46 <+iant> go.prefix = go.googlecode.com/
23:46 <+iant> go.username = iant@golang.org
23:46 <+iant> go.password = xxx
23:46 < skelterjohn> thanks much
23:46 < skelterjohn> having to keep looking up my googlecode pw was
irritating
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--- Log closed Sat Dec 12 00:00:32 2009