--- Log opened Mon May 09 00:00:50 2011
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01:08 < Tanner_> Hey, how do I use Go-SDL in my code?  Like, where do I put
the compiled files/folders?
01:12 < uriel> 22:54 < yvsong> Since it's an http func, shouldn't the
default protocol be http?  Browsers do so.
01:12 < uriel> yvsong: an API is not a web browser
01:13 < uriel> I doubt most http apis allow passing urls without the http://
unless they are relative urls (and that means the full qualified url is set some
other way)
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01:14 < dfc> Tanner_: does go-sdl support goinstall, i see it frequently in
the package dashboard, so i assume it does
01:14 < Tanner_> I have no idea, sorry :/
01:14 < Tanner_> How would I use goinstall though?
01:15 < dfc> hmm, might be tough going
01:15 < dfc> https://github.com/banthar/Go-SDL#readme
01:15 < dfc> looks a bit rough
01:17 < Tanner_> Wait, so goinstall is kind of like a package manager?
01:20 < dfc> not really
01:20 < dfc> it automates the parts of getting the source from github/google
gode and tries to build it
01:20 < dfc> but its not a complete package manager
01:20 < Tanner_> CWoo
01:20 < Tanner_> *Woo
01:20 < Tanner_> Got it to work :D
01:21 < dfc> http://golang.org/cmd/goinstall/
01:21 < Tanner_> I have to go for now, thanks for pointing me towards
goinstall :)
01:21 < dfc> no worries
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01:32 < yvsong> Any web.go user here?
01:38 < Tanner_> Is that the web interface to programming Go?
01:38 < Tanner_> On the main page of golang?
01:39 < yvsong> It's a framework for web devel: http://www.getwebgo.com/
01:40 < Tanner_> I haven't used it, are you needing help though?
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01:43 < Tanner_> Is there a good way to find stuff about Go online?  It's
such an ambiguous(sp) term that it shows up everywhere :(
01:43 < Namegduf> "Golang"
01:43 < Tanner_> Okay :)
01:45 < fzzbt> Tanner_: try this http://go-lang.cat-v.org/go-search
01:46 < Tanner_> Thanks :)
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01:52 < Tanner_> What does the * in front of SDL mean when importing?
01:52 < Tanner_> ⚛sdl
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01:53 < dfc> Tanner_: not sure
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01:53 < dfc> got a link ?
01:53 < Tanner_> Not really :/
01:53 < Tanner_> I am using this package though
01:53 < Tanner_> hg clone https://bitbucket.org/BluePeppers/go-sdl-tutorial
01:54 < Tanner_> And it is the file chaps/first/first.go
01:54 < Tanner_> I can only assume that it is supposed to be an
asterisk/wildcard
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01:55 < dfc> oh, that isn't a star
01:55 < dfc> its atom symbol
01:55 < dfc> a regulard contributor on the golang mailing list
01:55 < Tanner_> atom's symbol?
01:55 < dfc> package names can be any unicode valid string
01:56 < Tanner_> Or it is an atom symbol?
01:56 < dfc> well, it's the name he uses on the mailing list
01:56 < dfc> i'm assuming it's a he
01:56 < Tanner_> Okay
01:56 < Tanner_> If I remove the *, it works
01:56 < dfc> they are different packages
01:56 < dfc> you installed the former
01:57 < dfc> at some point atom has forked the code and renamed it (atom)sdl
01:57 < Tanner_> Ah, okay
01:57 < Tanner_> My version should still be fine, right?
01:57 < dfc> no idea mate
01:58 < dfc> i suggest asking for suggestions on the golang-nuts mailing
list
01:58 < dfc> it doens't look like there are an SDL users in the channel
01:58 < skelterjohn> if the tutorial is about a particular version, it
presumably needs that version
01:58 < skelterjohn> otherwise it wouldn't have been the one used
01:58 < skelterjohn> i'd love to be an sdl user, except sdl is not a good
citizen
01:58 < skelterjohn> #define main SDL_main
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01:59 < Namegduf> I don't think you have to do that, do you?
01:59 < skelterjohn> SDL does that.
01:59 < Namegduf> I think you have to call SDL_main if you don't, though, so
the amount of good it does...
01:59 < skelterjohn> in the header file.
02:03 < Tanner_> Okay, I guess I'll get that package fixed tomorrow; I need
sleep :/
02:03 < Tanner_> Good night
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02:34 < nbm> I'm actually playing with ⚛SDL at the moment.
02:37 < nbm> I didn't look too closely at the basic SDL, except to see that
it didn't have the fork's features, but it's a pretty direct wrapper around SDL;
The C docs work for it.
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02:44 < yvsong> In the final example of the tutorial, doc/progs/server.go
doesn't shut down the server cleanly; when main returns there are a number of
lingering goroutines blocked on communication.
02:44 < yvsong> Does this mean memory leak?
02:46 < |Craig|> when main returns, everything running is killed and the
program exits
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03:19 < Varriount> Does Go have any way of interfacing with C++?
03:20 < skelterjohn> you can go through C
03:20 < skelterjohn> and I think someone did some work with swig
03:20 < skelterjohn>
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/golang-nuts/g3XQK1HapV0/discussion
03:21 < skelterjohn> oh that is quite old
03:21 < Varriount> I'm just wondering how much work it would take to get the
OGRE graphics engine working with Go
03:21 < skelterjohn> ah, interesting
03:21 < skelterjohn> so not just some code that happens to be in C++
03:22 < Varriount> yeah, a whole engine..
03:22 < skelterjohn> i don't even mean the amount of code - i mean it's
something that is intrinsically C++ style object oriented
03:23 < Varriount> :/
03:23 < skelterjohn> although it would be lots of work, i don't see an
inherent problem interfacing.  but the nice thing about these engines is their
extensibility
03:23 < skelterjohn> i think it would be hard to extend the engine using go,
just because the inheritance/polymorphism in C++ doesn't work the same in go
03:25 < Varriount> Oh well, I guess I could just use the OpenGL package for
Go, though never working directly with GL before, it will be quite the learning
experience
03:25 < skelterjohn> apparently there is some swig support included
03:25 < skelterjohn> i don't mean to be discouraging :)
03:25 < Varriount> skelterjohn: I don't mean to actually do this now, just
wondering what could be done in the distant future
03:26 < Varriount> Right now I'm just starting to learn Go (Coming from a
python background with slight C and C++ knowledge)
03:27 < Varriount> Go seems a lot more readable than C++ thank heavens
03:28 < |Craig|> Varriount: I use Panda3D which has great python wrappers
03:28 < Varriount> Oh, ogre has python bindings
03:29 < Varriount> My main reason to stay away from panda3d is the simple
fact that the technology behind it is a bit outdated
03:29 < |Craig|> I've used Cython+Python with Panda, seems to get me most of
what I want without touching C++
03:29 < skelterjohn> if you're really into this sort of thing, doing some
raw opengl stuff would be a great experience
03:29 < skelterjohn> it's important to have a good feel for the lowest level
03:29 < Varriount> |Craig|: I'm seeing if Python-OGRE can run on Pypy
03:29 < Varriount> skelterjohn: True.
03:30 < |Craig|> Varriount: I got a deferred shaded renderer with procedural
terrain generated on the GPU with Panda.  It can do pertty modern stuff
03:31 < |Craig|> graphics is just not the main focus of Panda (its a game
engine more than a graphics engin) so lots of the samples and such are pretty low
spec
03:31 < Varriount> Anyway, bed time for me.  I think I'll stick around here,
Go seems to be a nice next language to learn
03:31 < |Craig|> that said, if you get something working with go, I'd be
very interested :)
03:31 < Varriount> |Craig|: Pics?
03:32 < |Craig|> I'm writing my game server in go
03:32 < skelterjohn> |Craig|: if I had lots of extra time i'd do a box2d
port
03:33 < |Craig|> Varriount: a pic:
http://craig.p3dp.com/MiscPics/lights/Screen%20shot%202011-04-29%20at%2012.35.59%20AM.png
03:33 < |Craig|> nothing exciting yet really, but I got it basic networking
to the server written in Go working
03:34 < skelterjohn> that's your first step?  :)
03:34 < skelterjohn> oh you're writin ga game server, not a game engine
03:35 < Varriount> |Craig|: Cell Shader?
03:35 < |Craig|> yep :) deferred cell shaded, :)
03:35 < Varriount> Ah
03:35 < skelterjohn> interesting kind of cell shader - really gives a nice
sense of depth
03:35 < skelterjohn> like in tree trunks
03:36 < skelterjohn> doesn't work as well for the trees in the foreground,
but the ones way in the back look fantastic
03:36 < |Craig|> I should get some new images up, those are pretty old
03:36 < uriel> Varriount: swig should work to interface with c++, i think
that is the main reasons iant added swig support
03:37 < |Craig|> Panda3D uses swig for its python binding, though theres a
lot of hand fweeking in there to make thing pythonic.  I Don't think it would work
cleanly with go
03:37 < Varriount> Ah, thanks.  Well, goodnight everyone.
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09:03 < xyproto> I found this youtube video about writing tests and
benchmarks quite instructive: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3brH0zOqm0w
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10:09 < xyproto> What is the difference between %q and %s or even %v?
(fmt.Println("%q", s))
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10:21 < zaktasticles> hi.  i'm a little confused about using cgo.  perhaps
it's something that's much easier with the help gomake, but i've always preferred
shell scripts to makefiles.  cgo completes without error and produces some .o, .c,
.go, etc.  files in _obj.  6l doesn't let me pass the .o in, so how do i
compile/link these with the rest of my application?
10:22 < zaktasticles> (or is it producing a usable file i haven't noticed
somewhere else?)
10:22 < Kafo> xyproto: http://golang.org/pkg/fmt/
10:23 < Kafo> zaktasticles: I think you simply import the package created by
cgo
10:24 < Kafo> import "./mycgopackage" for example
10:24 < Kafo> or "./_obj/mycgopackage"
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10:29 < skelterjohn> xyproto: i think %q quotes the string when renderin git
10:29 < xyproto> ah, found it, "%qa double-quoted string safely escaped with
Go syntax
10:30 < xyproto> "
10:30 < xyproto> Kafo: it was at golang.org/pkg/fmt, thanks.  Some times
right in front of your nose is the last place you look :)
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10:38 < zaktasticles> hmmm, inspected a little further..  seems it requires
cooperation of gcc, 6c and 6g (and cgo again??) to deal with the output of cgo :s
think i'll write a makefile
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10:44 < skelterjohn> zaktasticles: it's so easy to use the provided
makefiles...
10:44 < skelterjohn> why are you torturing yourself?
10:44 < skelterjohn> and if you make a cgo package, you don't need to do
anything special to import it
10:44 < skelterjohn> you can import it just like a regular package
10:44 < skelterjohn> if it appears something else is the case, then
something has gone wrong.
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10:50 < skelterjohn> zaktasticles: this is the output listing all the
command lines used to build a cgo pkg and link it to a cmd -
http://pastebin.com/hw66Wt3R
10:50 < skelterjohn> lines 23 and 24 build the cmd - 6g and 6l
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11:59 < victor_> Are there more flags than shown by 6g -h ?
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12:03 < zaktasticles> hmm..  perhaps the example i was looking at was just
more complicated than the average binding.  as for makefiles, i guess i've just
always found build systems to be one of the most perplexing aspects of the
man-made world.  reading through Make.pkg and friends it's starting to become
clear how cgo works though
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12:14 < xyproto> victor_: yes, I seem to recall that there's an option that
is not in the -h listing
12:14 < xyproto> victor_: trying to remember which
12:15 < xyproto> victor_: I think it was -G or something
12:15 < xyproto> victor_: it had to to with optimalization and/or the
inclusion of symbols, I think
12:16 < victor_> Just noticed -h is not for help, but for panic.
12:18 < xyproto> victor_: there are a bunch of "doc.go" files in $GOROOT
that contains some info
12:18 < Namegduf> -B, disable bounds checking?
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12:28 < wrtp> zaktasticles: cgo is pretty complicated.  best not to look too
closely :-)
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14:33 < jeremy_c> gotest is failing to compile for me, it err's on code it
generates.  Does anyone have an idea?  http://pastie.org/1881375 ...
_testmain.go:14 not enough arguments in call to testing.Main
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14:41 < skelterjohn> jeremy_c: I believe that you have a version mismatch
14:42 < skelterjohn> you may have an old version of gotest somewhere - i
suggest you remove it and rebuild go
14:42 * jeremy_c goes to look
14:43 < jeremy_c> hm, I am on my windows box, I didn't compile go, just
installed from the binary installer...  I'll remove and install again :-/
14:43 < skelterjohn> ah
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14:43 < skelterjohn> ok - the windows build might have been done incorrectly
14:43 < skelterjohn> that's more difficult for me to diagnose
14:44 < skelterjohn> but maybe a month ago some gotest stuff changed
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14:57 < jeremy_c> skelterjohn: I am not sure what was wrong.  I reinstalled
and had the same problem.  I then removed C:\Go and installed.  Now it works.
14:58 < skelterjohn> not worth thinking about too hard :)
14:58 < jeremy_c> :-) ...  now the only problem is my failing tests :-/
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15:08 < Varriount_> From looking at the Swig tutorial, correct me if I'm
wrong, you can use one swig file to produce bindings for multiple languages?
15:09 < taruti> yes
15:09 < Varriount_> Ok, interesting..
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15:11 < jeremy_c> In unit testing, what's a good way to compare floats?
i.e.  I am getting "Failure A is 0.000000 but should be 0.000000"
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15:20 < exch> floating point comparisons are not particularly precise.  It's
probably easier to compare the value to within a predefined margin of error.  so
instead of a == 0.0, try a > -0.0000x && a < 0.0000x
15:21 < jeremy_c> 0.0000x ?
15:21 < exch> that should be an arbitrary float value that offers enough
precision for your purposes
15:21 < wrtp> jeremy_c: when you print out float values, use %g
15:21 < wrtp> then you'll see the whole precision
15:21 < jeremy_c> huh, ok.  wrtp, will do.
15:22 < wrtp> (that won't help with the comparison problem, of course, but
at least you won't see a silly looking error message)
15:22 < jeremy_c> right.
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15:28 < jeremy_c> exch: I don't understand the 0.00000x example, that is a
parse error here.
15:29 < exch> replace it with an arbitrary float value that offers an
acceptable precision for yuor purposes
15:29 < exch> eg: 0.00003
15:29 < exch> or whatever
15:29 < jeremy_c> exch: oh.  duh :-/
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15:30 < jeremy_c> I had it in my mind it was a special go syntax that
truncated the compare at decimal position 'x'
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16:17 < jeremy_c> fmt.Printf("%02.4f", 5.4857) ...  prints "5.4857", I was
expecting "05.4857" ...  is this a Go bug?
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16:19 < jeremy_c> hm, never mind :-) I need %07.4f...  7 places total.
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16:21 < gmilleramilar> I'm trying to do some timing of my code with
something like this: http://pastie.org/private/yzt8jjp6hvhxjwgs4ihrq and I'm
fairly frequently getting _negative_ values for the average execution time.
16:21 < gmilleramilar> am I missing something?
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16:32 <+iant> gmilleramilar: what is your GOMAXPROCS setting?  are there new
goroutines being created in "do some stuff?" What processor are you using?
16:32 < ampleyfly> can't totaltime overflow?
16:33 <+iant> Unlikely if it's an int, but, yes: what type is
mStruct.Totaltime?
16:39 < gmilleramilar> totalTime is int64
16:39 < gmilleramilar> (sorry, got distracted for a moment)
16:39 < gmilleramilar> GOMAXPROCS is large, 10 or so.
16:40 < gmilleramilar> it's linux/amd64
16:40 < wrtp> gmilleramilar: do you get non-decreasing values of
Nanoseconds?
16:40 < gmilleramilar> I don't believe do some stuff creates goroutines.
16:40 < wrtp> if so, it's a bug...
16:42 < gmilleramilar> wrtp: putting in a log.Fatalf for it right now.
16:42 < wrtp> good plan
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16:46 < nbm> Is there a way to load Go packages at run time?
16:46 < wrtp> gmilleramilar: i meant "non-increasing" of course!
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16:46 < wrtp> nbm: no
16:46 < nbm> wrtp: Well crap.  That makes this harder.
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16:48 < nbm> Hmm, and eval won't really do what I need.  I guess it's good
that the compiler is fast.
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16:53 < wrtp> you can load another go program and talk to it through
netchan...
16:53 < wrtp> nbm: not quite the same thing, but might suffice sometimes
16:56 < nbm> wrtp: Actually...that might work really well.  Thanks.
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16:58 < wrtp> np
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16:58 < gmilleramilar> iant, wrtp: thanks, it was an overflow.
myStruct.Count was an int.  when I multiplied it by the constant 1e6, it was
overflowing the int.
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17:48 < skelterjohn> adg: I think it'd be neat if the go dashboard project
list had a "recently added" section
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17:51 < salty-horse> has non-blocking send been removed from the language?
I see it mentioned in various places, but not in the spec
17:52 < aiju> not quite
17:52 -!- rlab_ [~Miranda@91.200.158.34] has joined #go-nuts
17:52 < aiju> the old syntax has been removed
17:52 -!- rlab [~Miranda@91.200.158.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
17:52 < salty-horse> what's the current syntax?
17:52 < aiju> use select
17:53 < salty-horse> the syntax for select seems to only mention receive
expressions: http://golang.org/doc/go_spec.html#Select_statements
17:53 < skelterjohn> you can use select to send?
17:53 < aiju> sure
17:53 < aiju> select { case foo <- bar: ...  default: ...  }
17:54 < salty-horse> aiju, I see an example of that syntax here:
http://blog.golang.org/2010/09/go-concurrency-patterns-timing-out-and.html
17:54 < aiju> salty-horse: the examples have even a send example <.<
17:54 < salty-horse> but not in the spec :/
17:54 < aiju> what syntax?
17:54 < skelterjohn> salty-horse: it lists send in there
17:54 < salty-horse> aiju, right...
17:54 < skelterjohn> CommCase
17:55 -!- keidaa [~keidaa@cm-84.210.56.138.getinternet.no] has joined #go-nuts
17:57 < salty-horse> actually, the paragraph sort of explains it :)
17:57 < skelterjohn> the spec seems to be pretty sufficient for describing
both send and recv cases for select
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17:58 < salty-horse> so since a given send blocks, "select" chooses the
"default" case that "can proceed"
17:58 < skelterjohn> yes
17:58 < salty-horse> the wording confused me a bit
17:59 < skelterjohn> when people strive for technical correctness it can
muddy the prose a bit
17:59 < salty-horse> also, "channel expression" only appears twice in the
spec.  I assume it means an expression that mentions a channel
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seconds]
18:01 < skelterjohn> an expression that evaluates to a channel
18:01 < skelterjohn> for instance if you have a function that returns a
channel
18:01 < skelterjohn> a call to that function is a channel expression
18:01 < salty-horse> or a receive from a channel of channels :)
18:02 < salty-horse> got it
18:02 < skelterjohn> eek
18:02 < skelterjohn> that sounds like a way to confuse yourself quickly :)
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18:08 < homa_rano> <-<-chans?
18:08 < homa_rano> brain compiler abort
18:09 < aiju> hahahaa
18:09 < aiju> homa_rano: common practice
18:10 < aiju> i've had chan chan chans
18:10 < salty-horse> http://golang.org/doc/effective_go.html#chan_of_chan
18:10 < homa_rano> I have seen parallel situations with variables named
chanss (with plural of plural...)
18:10 < aiju> like int*** in C
18:11 < homa_rano> if you get to metaplural variable names, you may need to
rename things
18:12 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping
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18:13 < skelterjohn> *shrug* as long as it's clear
18:13 < homa_rano> I would argue that metaplural is by definition unclear
18:14 < aiju> like twodimensional lists?
18:14 < homa_rano> yes, naming 2d lists intss
18:14 < homa_rano> I do not approve
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18:18 < skelterjohn> i'd like to hear that argument
18:18 < homa_rano> the argument is very simple: it's not how english works,
so it's confusing
18:19 < skelterjohn> english \intersect programming != english \union
programming
18:19 < homa_rano> especially if you're throwing around intss and one of its
elements ints in the same statement
18:19 < homa_rano> which is the precise case that backfired so horribly in
my experience
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19:21 < keidaa> not sure if this is an error: a8l: _go_.8: not package main
(package foo)
19:22 < keidaa> is it because I don't call my main file main.go ?
19:22 -!- dju_ [dju@fsf/member/dju] has joined #go-nuts
19:23 < ww> keidaa: no, it's because you have "package foo"
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19:24 < ww> if you are building a command you must have "package main" in
all the files that make up your program
19:24 < icey> noob question: Is it appropriate to use goroutines the same
way you'd use a process in erlang?  (say a goroutine for each user connected to a
service?)
19:24 < keidaa> ah ok, I thought it should be package foo
19:25 < ww> keidaa: if you are building a library called foo, then you would
use "package foo"
19:25 < ww> icey: yes, that's right
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19:25 < icey> ww: awesome, thanks
19:25 < ww> np
19:25 < skelterjohn> icey: you can be much more liberal about using
goroutines than you can processes
19:26 < keidaa> ww: I see, thanks
19:26 < skelterjohn> they're very low overhead, in comparison
19:26 < icey> skelterjohn: that's interesting; I always thought erlang had
pretty lightweight processes (although I'm not deep with Erlang...  the syntax
never sat very well with me)
19:26 < ww> like erlang, only more so :)
19:27 < skelterjohn> i don't know much about erlang, but the word "process"
has meaning in an OS context
19:27 < skelterjohn> if they redefine the word in the context of the
language, that's unfortunate and confusing
19:27 < icey> skelterjohn: an erlang process is not an OS thread
19:27 < skelterjohn> to me, threads and processes are not the same thing
19:28 < skelterjohn> a process is heavier
19:28 < ww> yeah, they do.  they are very lightweight though in strict
comparison to goroutines i don't know who wins
19:28 < skelterjohn> probably pretty similar then
19:29 -!- xash [~xash@d075191.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #go-nuts
19:29 < icey> I just wanted to make sure I was thinking about how to use
goroutines appropriately; I thought that was the situation, but figured it
couldn't hurt to ask.
19:30 < skelterjohn> we're generally glad to be of any help we can
19:30 < skelterjohn> except for aiju
19:30 < kamaji> Should I be modelling class conditional feature
probabilities as normal distributions for naive bayes?
19:30 < skelterjohn> heh
19:30 < kamaji> not really go, but...
19:30 < ww> that seems like a skelterjohn question :)
19:30 < skelterjohn> are they discrete values?
19:31 < kamaji> i'm using word frequencies
19:31 < skelterjohn> the features
19:31 < kamaji> it's a word vector
19:31 < kamaji> but i'm doing word frequencies and TF-IDF
19:31 < skelterjohn> kamaji: typical thing to do there would be to use a
dirichlet-multinomial
19:31 < skelterjohn> for instance all of the bayesian topic modeling is
built on that idea
19:31 < aiju> skelterjohn: i don't quite know what you're trying to tell me
19:31 < kamaji> hurk
19:31 < skelterjohn> aiju: poking fun
19:31 < aiju> and stop making shit up about processes and threads
19:32 * ww hugs aiju
19:32 < aiju> Linux threads are just processes as well
19:32 < aiju> they just conceal their processness very well
19:32 < kamaji> skelterjohn: just gaussians per-feature should work though,
right?
19:32 < kamaji> I mean reasonably well
19:32 < skelterjohn> a gaussian to model a likelihood?
19:32 < skelterjohn> a guassian supports the whole number line
19:32 < skelterjohn> but a probability is between 0 and 1
19:33 < skelterjohn> i mean, i guess it could work
19:33 < skelterjohn> it would converge to something reasonable, in the limit
19:33 < ww> Come, let us hasten to a higher plane,
19:33 < ww> Where dyads tread the fairy fields of Venn,
19:33 < ww> Their indices bedecked from one to n,
19:33 < ww> Commingled in an endless Markov chain!
19:34 < kamaji> skelterjohn: A gaussian for each feature
19:34 < skelterjohn> but a feature is "the word is here" or "the word is not
here", right?
19:34 < kamaji> the feature is the frequency of the word
19:35 < kamaji> which can be zero
19:35 < skelterjohn> i see
19:35 < kamaji> (which is causing problems)
19:35 < skelterjohn> from zero to what
19:35 < skelterjohn> infinity
19:35 < skelterjohn> ?
19:35 < xash> Anyone who worked with https://github.com/hanwen/go-fuse ?
Everytime I try to state.Loop(true) even the examples crash with "invalid
argument"
19:35 < skelterjohn> or is it a ratio
19:35 < kamaji> well zero to 1
19:35 < kamaji> yeah
19:35 < skelterjohn> this sounds perfect for a dirichlet
19:35 < kamaji> but then I have to read about themmmmm :(
19:36 < skelterjohn> the dirichlet distribution is good stuff
19:36 < skelterjohn> it will make you a better person
19:36 < kamaji> lol
19:36 < ww> For what did Cauchy know, or Christoffel?
19:36 * skelterjohn waits patiently for the next line of the poem
19:37 < kamaji> ww: are you writing this as we speak?  If so I would like to
subscribe to your newsletter
19:37 < ww> kamaji, sadly now.  that's the brilliant mathematical poetry of
stanislaw lem
19:37 < ww> s/now/no/
19:38 < ww> http://powerdown.free.fr/ap.html
19:39 < kamaji> just finished it.  breathtaking :D
19:40 < skelterjohn> i don't know enough math to read all of it
19:41 < ww> actually, i just realised that the other languages aren't
translations, they're completely different
19:42 < ww> (who knows what lem actually wrote in polish)
19:42 < kamaji> I've heard of all the things but I don't know what they are
19:42 < kamaji> ww: Polish people?
19:42 < ww> kamaji: of course
19:44 < ww> christoffel, riemann, tensors...  something to do with general
relativity
19:44 < kamaji> skelterjohn: the probabilities won't necessarily sum to one
19:44 < skelterjohn> that is unfortunate
19:44 < skelterjohn> they're not really probabilities, then
19:45 < ww> normalise?
19:45 < kamaji> I'm sure this should work with normals :P
19:45 < skelterjohn> kamaji: i think you should read this paper
http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=944937
19:45 < skelterjohn> it's by david blei on topic models
19:46 < skelterjohn> he's a very good writer, and i think it's a pretty
readable paper
19:46 < kamaji> added to zotero
19:46 < skelterjohn> kamaji: don't let the status quo stop you from
experimenting
19:46 < kamaji> which is friggen amazing btw
19:46 < kamaji> skelterjohn: deadlines will do that :P
19:46 < skelterjohn> i've never heard of something doing this with normals,
but that doesn't mean it won't work
19:47 < kamaji> i've seen a few people doing it
19:47 < kamaji> but mine tends to get stuck always predicting the same class
for some reason
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["Leaving"]
19:47 < kamaji> I'm just not sure how to deal with a class that has no
examples for a certain feature
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has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:48 < ww> kamaji: that sounds like the problem i had when i tried using a
HMM to tag text from irc
19:48 < kamaji> why is everyone in here so badass?
19:48 < kamaji> ww: what was your solution?
19:49 < ww> n-gram :P
19:49 < skelterjohn> if you have a class that has no examples, it's going to
be hard to add things to that class
19:49 < kamaji> doh
19:49 < kamaji> skelterjohn: add things ?
19:49 < skelterjohn> tag new things as belonging to that class
19:49 < skelterjohn> unless you do some nonparametric stuff, but first
things first
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19:50 < kamaji> the thing is, I kinda get how laplace smoothing applies to
multinomial bayes
19:50 < kamaji> but I can't use multinomial with tf-idf
19:50 < skelterjohn> laplace smoothing is the same as a
dirichlet-multinomial with a particular parameterization
19:51 < skelterjohn> what is "tf-idf"?
19:51 < ww> chirplet?
19:51 < kamaji> term frequency * (size of dataset / occurrences of term)
19:51 * ww tries to remember
19:51 < kamaji> (occurrences of term in the dataset, that is)
19:52 < skelterjohn> term frequency inverse data frequency?
19:52 < kamaji> inverse document frequency is how I heard it, buyt yeah
19:52 < skelterjohn> ah
19:52 < kamaji> maybe if I just prune all the features for which I have no
data?  heh
19:53 < kamaji> that will probably suck really hard
19:53 < skelterjohn> experiment
19:53 < skelterjohn> how much time do you have?
19:53 < kamaji> well if it comes to it I can use a library
19:53 < kamaji> but I want to make my own one work
19:53 < kamaji> ideally tonight
19:54 * ww starts having funny ideas about fourier-like transforms of text
19:54 < skelterjohn> tonight?  ok, don't read the LDA paper right now
19:54 < skelterjohn> just hack it together until it works :)
19:57 < kamaji> lol
19:57 < ww> how big a database server would you need for a four-column table
with 200 million rows and three indexes on different permutations of the columns?
19:58 < ww> (and yes, that is go-related albeit peripherally)
20:07 -!- binarypie [~binarypie@adsl-76-254-24-124.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has
quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20:08 < ww> http://wearcam.org/gabor1946.pdf
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20:09 < ww> ^^ interesting but not entirely relevant reading not for when
deadlines loom
20:10 < Varriount> skelterjohn, Outside of this channel, have I seen you
somewhere?
20:10 < skelterjohn> that's a tough question
20:10 < skelterjohn> i have been many places
20:10 < skelterjohn> if you name a few, i can tell you if it's possible
20:10 < ww> malta?
20:10 < skelterjohn> no
20:11 < Varriount> Hrm, #MCDevs, #Python, #Twisted, #FIFE
20:11 < skelterjohn> no
20:11 < ww> cuba?
20:11 < skelterjohn> no
20:11 -!- binarypie [~binarypie@adsl-76-254-24-124.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has
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20:11 < ww> toronto?
20:12 < skelterjohn> if you definitely mean IRC, i used to hang out in
quake3 channels on etg
20:12 < skelterjohn> that was many years ago
20:12 < skelterjohn> in recent times, only #go-nuts, and #macdev during the
past few days
20:14 < Bigbear1> why is there no type casting in Go?
20:16 < kamaji> Why is the sky red?
20:16 < kamaji> oh wait, that's sometimes true.  balls.
20:17 < zozoR> type casting?
20:17 < zozoR> .(int) or int()
20:18 < ww> danger, Will Robinson!
20:18 < skelterjohn> Bigbear1: because go decided to let you treat a piece
of data as only one thing
20:18 < skelterjohn> type conversion is safer
20:18 < skelterjohn> and just as powerful
20:19 < kamaji> oh is that what it's called?  oooops
20:19 < kamaji> I thought it _was_ type casting
20:19 < skelterjohn> int(x) is type conversion
20:19 < skelterjohn> x.(int) is type assertion
20:19 < zozoR> oh
20:19 < zozoR> :D
20:19 < skelterjohn> casting means telling the compiler to think of data as
a certain type
20:19 < skelterjohn> that is not what happens in go
20:19 < skelterjohn> a type conversion in go creates a new piece of data
20:20 < kamaji> oh right
20:20 < skelterjohn> for instance, even if you could do X(aY), you can't do
(*X)(&aY)
20:20 < skelterjohn> X(aY) creates a new piece of data (with the same
underlying bytes)
20:20 < xb95> type conversion actually allocates a new one?
20:20 < xb95> 'same underlying bytes'..  so does it do a copy?  or is it
like a slice/reference?
20:20 < skelterjohn> depends what you mean by allocates
20:20 < ww> can we have the data vs datum debate?
20:20 < skelterjohn> you can't convert everything
20:21 < kamaji> i'm guessing it won't let you convert a struct to another
struct?
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20:21 < skelterjohn> kamaji: no
20:21 < kamaji> so the rule is probably basic types, and types to interfaces
20:21 < ww> iff there is embedding going on...
20:21 < kamaji> wah
20:21 < skelterjohn> ah yes, ifyou have type A struct { B }, i think you can
convert that
20:21 < skelterjohn> but you might as well say theA.B instead of B(theA)
20:22 < skelterjohn> i'm not sure the conversion works there, though
20:22 < xb95> I have an application where I've got a map[string]int and I
have a []byte I want to use as the key, so I do mymap[string(mybyteslice)]
20:22 < skelterjohn> that copies
20:22 < xb95> okay, awesome.  thanks.
20:22 < skelterjohn> the reason for that is strings are immutable
20:22 < skelterjohn> while []byte is not
20:22 < skelterjohn> map depends on the string key not changing
20:22 < skelterjohn> and if it didn't copy the []byte, you could break it in
a subtle way
20:23 < xb95> okay.  so, I assumed it copied once, so that the key would be
imutable
20:23 < xb95> but I guess I'm now worried it copies twice
20:23 -!- niemeyer [~niemeyer@business-89-133-214-120.business.broadband.hu] has
quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20:23 < xb95> once for []byte -> string, then twice for string -> key
20:23 < skelterjohn> when you pass a string to something, the string is not
copied
20:23 < xb95> ah-hah.  perfect.
20:23 < skelterjohn> a string is a reference type
20:23 < skelterjohn> this works because they're immutable :)
20:23 < xb95> yup, makes sense
20:25 < xb95> not that I need to say it, but Go is great.  I've been really
digging it.  the learning curve isn't too steep either, which is particularly
welcome.
20:25 < kamaji> xb95: one of us!  one of us!
20:25 < skelterjohn> hehe
20:25 < skelterjohn> i feel like it mixes together things i like from a lot
of languages
20:25 < skelterjohn> and leaves out bits i don't like
20:26 < xb95> aye
20:26 < kamaji> buy Go now for only $19.95 and you'll receive these
complimentary steak knives!
20:28 -!- bortzmeyer [~stephane@2a01:e35:8bd9:8bb0:6835:b496:b83c:5f29] has quit
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20:29 < xb95> I need some steak knives.
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20:52 < mdxi> act now and we'll throw in CONCURRENCY, a $79.99 value,
ABSOLUTELY FREE
20:53 < kamaji> bam!  goroutine!  it's as easy as typing two letters!
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23:01 < Varriount> So, what kind of things is Go used for exactly?
23:01 < skelterjohn> i write machine learning experimentation code
23:01 < skelterjohn> but i'd guess the most common application is web
servers
23:01 < Kafo> I wrote a server emulator
23:02 < telexicon> it'd be good for any concurrent network server
23:02 < skelterjohn> servers in general
23:02 < skelterjohn> especially those that have to keep track of many
clients at the same time
23:03 < telexicon> go would work really well for an irc server
23:03 < Kafo> And small utilities for pretty much everything.
23:03 < skelterjohn> some people have worked on irc servers
23:03 < skelterjohn> aiju and Namegduf have
23:03 < telexicon> ive wondered, from my understanding of goroutines, the
runtime takes care of scheduling and multiplexing them onto OS threads
23:04 < skelterjohn> that is correct
23:04 < telexicon> but how does go handle C library interfaces for things
like database libs where they block?
23:04 < skelterjohn> the whole thread will block
23:04 < telexicon> and so you lose your goroutine benefits?
23:04 < skelterjohn> so when interfacing with C you need to be careful
23:05 < skelterjohn> i think the runtime might move some goroutines from
that thread to another
23:05 < skelterjohn> but i'm not sure
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23:08 < Kafo> I'm pretty sure it creates a new thread for some (most?  all?)
goroutines to run.
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23:10 < skelterjohn> one notable case where that does not happen is
time.Sleep
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23:41 < icey> is there any speculation as to whether go will be supported on
appengine any time soon?
23:42 < skelterjohn> it's an issue on the app engine tracker
23:42 < skelterjohn> i don't know who (if anyone) has taken responsibility
23:46 < icey> is that generally a good indicator of what's getting worked
on?  no disrespect to any googlers, but with other goog products i've kind of
found you don't hear anything at all until they're ready to release something (or
it just goes into the black hole)
23:46 < aa_> icey: Google don't preannounce features/products/etc
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23:48 < aa_> I think its a good policy
23:48 < icey> aa_: Right; I'm just saying that you don't tend to get an
indication that something is even being considered (not just features, bugs
included), until it comes out
23:48 < uriel> Varriount: http://go-lang.cat-v.org/organizations-using-go
23:48 < icey> aa_: I don't disagree with the policy of not preannouncing
things
23:48 < aa_> icey: yeah but they can't half-announce
23:49 < aa_> I know you arent disagreeing
23:49 < uriel> icey: https://go.googlecode.com/hg/doc/devel/roadmap.html
23:49 < icey> uriel: awesome, thanks
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--- Log closed Tue May 10 00:00:50 2011