--- Log opened Fri Mar 04 00:00:35 2011 00:04 -!- nsf [~nsf@jiss.convex.ru] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 00:24 -!- skelterjohn [~jasmuth@c-68-45-238-234.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 00:31 -!- Venom_X [~pjacobs@66.54.185.131] has quit [Quit: Venom_X] 00:36 -!- charme_g [~charme_g@163.5.84.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:37 -!- PortatoreSanoDiI [~Marvin@dynamic-adsl-94-36-165-252.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: E se abbasso questa leva che succ...] 00:39 -!- ronnyy [~quassel@p4FF1C52D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:45 -!- shvntr [~shvntr@113.84.147.45] has joined #go-nuts 00:46 -!- artefon [~thiago@189.59.205.178] has quit [Quit: bye] 00:46 -!- nettok [~quassel@200.119.153.90] has joined #go-nuts 00:47 -!- cmccabe [~cmccabe@c-24-23-253-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 00:47 < cmccabe> hi 00:55 -!- mikespook [~mikespook@219.137.51.183] has joined #go-nuts 01:02 < plexdev> http://is.gd/97CaU0 by [Robert Griesemer] in go/src/cmd/gofmt/ -- gofmt: exclude test file that is not legal Go 01:07 -!- stalled [~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled] has joined #go-nuts 01:09 -!- saturnfive [~saturnfiv@210.74.155.131] has joined #go-nuts 01:13 < |Craig|> any ideas why my tls handshake is taking forever? (more than 200 seconds anyway, I haven't see it finish). Server is in Go with tls.Conn and client is in python with Twisted. No errors on either side, and send data does not go through. This is my first attempt at tls, so I may be doing something rather foolish. 01:13 -!- dfr|mac [~dfr|work@ool-182e3fca.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:18 -!- ewanas [~dsc@78.100.210.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:24 -!- ymasory [~ymasory@c-76-99-55-224.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:34 < plexdev> http://is.gd/xTI4ph by [Andrew Gerrand] in go/doc/ -- doc: describe platform-specific conventions in code.html 01:46 -!- mattn_jp [~mattn@s60.BMT-e1.vectant.ne.jp] has joined #go-nuts 01:53 -!- charme_g [~charme_g@163.5.84.215] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- m4dh4tt3r [~Adium@c-69-181-223-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:59 -!- charme_g [~charme_g@163.5.84.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:21 < plexdev> http://is.gd/lRGInv by [Andrew Gerrand] in go/doc/ -- doc: add "implements" question to FAQ 02:44 -!- charme_g [~charme_g@163.5.84.215] has joined #go-nuts 02:52 -!- arun [~arun@unaffiliated/sindian] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:54 -!- arun [~arun@2001:610:110:4e2:280:5aff:fe69:e130] has joined #go-nuts 02:54 -!- arun [~arun@2001:610:110:4e2:280:5aff:fe69:e130] has quit [Changing host] 02:54 -!- arun [~arun@unaffiliated/sindian] has joined #go-nuts 03:11 -!- saturnfive [~saturnfiv@210.74.155.131] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:12 -!- saturnfive [~saturnfiv@210.74.155.131] has joined #go-nuts 03:58 -!- Eridius [~kevin@unaffiliated/eridius] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:04 -!- nettok [~quassel@200.119.153.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:11 -!- shvntr [~shvntr@113.84.147.45] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:16 -!- rejb [~rejb@unaffiliated/rejb] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:18 -!- edsrzf [~kelvan@122-61-221-144.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #go-nuts 04:19 -!- cmccabe [~cmccabe@c-24-23-253-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:25 -!- dfr|mac [~dfr|work@ool-182e3fca.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:26 -!- dfr|mac [~dfr|work@ool-182e3fca.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #go-nuts 04:36 -!- itrekkie [~itrekkie@ip72-211-129-122.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Quit: itrekkie] 04:39 -!- saturnfive [~saturnfiv@210.74.155.131] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:39 -!- saturnfive [~saturnfiv@210.74.155.131] has joined #go-nuts 04:40 -!- marekweb [~marek@bas1-montreal48-1176173369.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #go-nuts 04:49 -!- keithcascio [~keithcasc@nat/google/x-qmaooznfjgdgjkio] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:14 -!- zozoR [~Morten@56346ed3.rev.stofanet.dk] has joined #go-nuts 05:21 -!- Xacker [~MrFree10@217.118.66.102] has joined #go-nuts 05:23 < Xacker> hello 05:30 -!- werdan7 [~w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:30 -!- Xacker [~MrFree10@217.118.66.102] has left #go-nuts [] 05:30 -!- tsykoduk [~tsykoduk@c-98-232-28-167.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:31 -!- tsykoduk [~tsykoduk@c-98-232-28-167.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 05:34 -!- fabled [~fabled@mail.fi.jw.org] has joined #go-nuts 05:36 -!- werdan7 [~w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7] has joined #go-nuts 05:39 < plexdev> http://is.gd/gtaz74 by [Andrew Gerrand] in go/doc/ -- doc: there's no such thing as a .cgo file 05:42 -!- yugui___ [~yugui@yugui.jp] has joined #go-nuts 05:42 -!- rm445_ [rm445@pip.srcf.societies.cam.ac.uk] has joined #go-nuts 05:43 -!- yugui__ [~yugui@yugui.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:43 -!- Wiz126 [Wiz@h29.117.232.68.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:43 -!- rm445 [rm445@pip.srcf.societies.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:43 -!- kingfishr [~kingfishr@c-98-207-87-183.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:43 -!- str1ngs [~strings@unaffiliated/str1ngs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:43 -!- dforsyth [~dforsyth@ec2-50-18-22-230.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:43 -!- kingfishr [~kingfishr@c-98-207-87-183.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 05:43 -!- dforsyth [~dforsyth@ec2-50-18-22-230.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #go-nuts 05:43 -!- charme_g [~charme_g@163.5.84.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:44 -!- charme_g [~charme_g@163.5.84.215] has joined #go-nuts 05:45 -!- str1ngs [~strings@unaffiliated/str1ngs] has joined #go-nuts 05:48 -!- Wiz126 [Wiz@h29.117.232.68.ip.windstream.net] has joined #go-nuts 06:03 -!- bluet_ [mastensg@knuth.ping.uio.no] has left #go-nuts [] 06:09 -!- shvntr [~shvntr@113.84.147.45] has joined #go-nuts 06:14 -!- marekweb [~marek@bas1-montreal48-1176173369.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:15 -!- zozoR [~Morten@56346ed3.rev.stofanet.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:21 -!- dfr|mac [~dfr|work@ool-182e3fca.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:25 -!- ExtraSpice [XtraSpice@78-62-101-194.static.zebra.lt] has joined #go-nuts 06:38 -!- Natch [~natch@c-6dcde155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #go-nuts 06:41 -!- Natch| [~natch@c-6dcde155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:59 -!- KingPhilroy [~kingphilr@shc-nat-newhall.stonehill.edu] has joined #go-nuts 07:04 -!- unofficialmvp [~dev@94-62-164-227.b.ipv4ilink.net] has joined #go-nuts 07:04 -!- unofficialmvp [~dev@94-62-164-227.b.ipv4ilink.net] has left #go-nuts [] 07:18 -!- aho [~nya@fuld-590c774b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: EXEC_over.METHOD_SUBLIMATION] 07:20 -!- niemeyer [~niemeyer@41.138.67.18] has joined #go-nuts 07:27 -!- bortzmeyer [~bortzmeye@batilda.nic.fr] has joined #go-nuts 07:28 -!- ekontsevoy [~ekontsevo@209.20.66.251] has joined #go-nuts 07:29 < ekontsevoy> Can I compile my Go code into shared libraries (so) to use them from other programs? 07:33 < Namegduf> No. 07:33 < ekontsevoy> Thanks. ;-( I keep checking, every 6 months or so. 07:54 -!- skejoe [~skejoe@188.114.142.162] has joined #go-nuts 07:54 -!- wrtp [~rog@92.17.46.220] has joined #go-nuts 07:54 < taruti> ekontsevoy: what are you trying to do? 07:59 -!- tensorpudding [~user@99.23.127.179] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:02 -!- _pearle_ [~pearle@24.224.181.222] has joined #go-nuts 08:05 -!- pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:12 -!- mbernstein [~michael@cpe-70-113-7-72.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:12 -!- piranha [~piranha@5ED42E59.cm-7-5a.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #go-nuts 08:25 -!- tvw [~tv@212.79.9.150] has joined #go-nuts 08:36 -!- |Craig| [~|Craig|@panda3d/entropy] has quit [Quit: |Craig|] 08:36 < taruti> Has anyone got a version of sync.Mutex that writes a call trace upon Lock/Unlock to stderr handy? 08:40 -!- mattn_jp [~mattn@s60.BMT-e1.vectant.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 08:43 < wrtp> taruti: why not just temporarily alter your copy of the sync package? 08:44 < wrtp> if you've got a hard-to-find race condition you might want to use print rather than fmt.Print as it doesn't yield 08:44 -!- maattd [~maattd@esc31-1-78-245-92-71.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #go-nuts 08:44 -!- maattd [~maattd@esc31-1-78-245-92-71.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 08:45 -!- maattd [~maattd@esc31-1-78-245-92-71.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #go-nuts 08:45 -!- maattd [~maattd@esc31-1-78-245-92-71.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 08:46 -!- maattd [~maattd@esc31-1-78-245-92-71.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #go-nuts 08:46 -!- maattd [~maattd@esc31-1-78-245-92-71.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 08:47 -!- maattd [~maattd@esc31-1-78-245-92-71.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #go-nuts 08:47 -!- maattd [~maattd@esc31-1-78-245-92-71.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:48 < wrtp> isn't it just two lines of code that you need? 08:48 -!- mattn_jp [~mattn@s60.BMT-e1.vectant.ne.jp] has joined #go-nuts 08:49 < taruti> wrtp: with traces? 08:49 < wrtp> do you want the full stack trace each time, or just the caller? 08:50 < taruti> full, but I'll try printfs first 08:50 < wrtp> taruti: you might find this useful: http://pastebin.com/fyYR14N3 08:51 < wrtp> it'll slow things down, but maybe that doesn't matter 08:51 < wrtp> i've found it very useful in the paste 08:51 < wrtp> s/paste/past/ 08:52 < wrtp> it returns a string representation of the stack, all on one line, suitable for use with log 08:53 < taruti> thanks 08:57 -!- jumzi [~none@c-89-233-234-125.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #go-nuts 09:12 -!- kingfishr [~kingfishr@c-98-207-87-183.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:16 -!- ronnyy [~quassel@p4FF1C6D8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #go-nuts 09:30 -!- mikespook [~mikespook@219.137.51.183] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:12 -!- nsf [~nsf@jiss.convex.ru] has joined #go-nuts 10:15 -!- saturnfive [~saturnfiv@210.74.155.131] has quit [Read error: 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cenuij [~cenuij@78.112.41.178] has quit [Changing host] 12:44 -!- cenuij [~cenuij@base/student/cenuij] has joined #go-nuts 12:59 -!- lmoura_ [~lauromour@187.113.101.180] has joined #go-nuts 13:00 -!- Project_2501 [~Marvin@82.84.71.132] has quit [Quit: E se abbasso questa leva che succ...] 13:00 -!- lmoura [~lauromour@187.113.104.207] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:14 -!- zozoR [~Morten@56346ed3.rev.stofanet.dk] has joined #go-nuts 13:22 -!- artefon [~thiago@187.20.199.64] has joined #go-nuts 13:26 -!- marekweb [~marek@bas1-montreal48-1176173369.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #go-nuts 13:30 < skelterjohn> mornin 13:30 < skelterjohn> g 13:32 < nsf> :) 13:33 < skelterjohn> hows things 13:35 * nsf is busy writing C killer 13:36 < skelterjohn> do i get royalties for the @ operator? 13:36 < schmrkc> A C killer, eh? 13:36 < nsf> skelterjohn: credits, sure, no royalties sorry :) 13:36 < skelterjohn> i want a percent of your profits, dammit! 13:36 < nsf> ok, take all 100% 13:37 < skelterjohn> thank you. 13:37 < nsf> out of 0 13:37 < skelterjohn> you just think it's *likely* to be zero 13:37 < nsf> I think no one will use my language 13:37 < nsf> :) 13:37 < nsf> even _if_ I'll finish it 13:37 < skelterjohn> i will. i'll even pay $5 to do so 13:38 < skelterjohn> guaranteeing royalties of $5! 13:38 < rm445> nsf: what are the features of your language? 13:38 < nsf> rm445: basically it will look like a stripped version of Go 13:39 < nsf> and other features are TBD 13:39 < nsf> there are some ideas 13:40 < skelterjohn> are you writing the compiler in go? 13:40 < nsf> no, in C++ 13:40 < skelterjohn> @_@ 13:40 < nsf> it's a perfect choice for a compiler 13:40 < nsf> at the moment 13:41 < rm445> you should start with a small C compiler and gradually bootstrap it into a [your language] compiler. 13:42 < nsf> at the moment my priority is to get something that works 13:43 < nsf> and probably compiles to C 13:43 < nsf> or LLVM bytecode 13:43 < nsf> and that's a lot of work 13:45 -!- tensai_cirno [~cirno@h212.net62.bmstu.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:46 < nsf> x := 5 + -+-+-+-6 13:46 < nsf> valid go code :) 13:46 < nsf> x := 5+-+-+-+-6 13:46 < nsf> looks nice, lol 13:53 < schmrkc> How will this kill C? 13:54 < nsf> it won't, don't worry 13:55 < schmrkc> I'm not worried. 13:55 < nsf> thou shall not kill 13:55 < schmrkc> I find C quite pleasent. 13:56 < nsf> honestly I'm just making another experimental language, for fun 13:56 < nsf> and it should be a good experience for a programmer too 13:56 < exch> the experimental ones are the most fun :) 13:58 -!- tensorpudding [~user@99.23.127.179] has joined #go-nuts 14:00 < schmrkc> cool beans. What nice features are you bringing to it? 14:00 < schmrkc> I'd like a forth with these channel things 14:00 < nsf> concurrency won't be a part of this language 14:00 -!- pharris [~Adium@rhgw.opentext.com] has joined #go-nuts 14:00 * exch was working on a 'goified' factor 14:01 < nsf> I'm heading very much towards C 14:01 -!- sauerbraten [~sauerbrat@p508CB1B9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #go-nuts 14:01 < yiyus> schmrkc: you can use channels and goroutines in retroforth 14:01 < yiyus> with the go version of the vm 14:01 < nsf> first priority is a clean context-independent grammar, then modules system, then we'll see 14:02 < nsf> methods will go in, interfaces (probably in a modified form) will go in 14:02 < nsf> most likely 14:02 -!- virtualsue [~chatzilla@nat/cisco/x-cnjpfihfytbudjsr] has joined #go-nuts 14:03 -!- mbernstein [~michael@cpe-70-113-7-72.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 14:03 < exch> https://gist.github.com/854644 2 examples of the language I am working with atm. I am having some problems getting the combinator implementations working in the compiler though 14:03 < exch> must spend some quality time brainstorming on that 14:03 < schmrkc> yiyus: oh very cool. too bad its retroforth, but very nice :) 14:03 < schmrkc> exch: goified factor seems a bit fun too. 14:03 < exch> ya 14:05 -!- lmoura__ [~lauromour@186.215.206.130] has joined #go-nuts 14:06 < nsf> iant: you're using mpfr_t in gofrontend's lexer, I thought Go requires arbitrary-precision for everything.. or maybe I'm wrong about mpfr's limited precision? 14:07 < nsf> or maybe it simply doesn't matter due to float's nature? 14:07 < skelterjohn> i guess golang has really attracted the language weirdos 14:08 -!- lmoura_ [~lauromour@187.113.101.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:08 < skelterjohn> i feel like the only normal kid here 14:08 < exch> hehe 14:08 < nsf> skelterjohn: Go is a place of hope amongst OOP hell 14:08 < skelterjohn> time to go work on my javascript IDE for go 14:11 < nsf> "Implementation restriction: A compiler may implement numeric constants by choosing an internal representation with at least twice as many bits as any machine type; for floating-point values, both the mantissa and exponent must be twice as large." 14:11 < nsf> ah, I see now 14:14 < nsf> and I guess I was wrong about mpfr's limited precision 14:14 < nsf> too 14:14 < nsf> well, it is limited, but it's quite big 14:14 < nsf> good then 14:17 -!- ymasory [~ymasory@c-76-99-55-224.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:21 -!- ivan` [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 14:21 -!- ivan` [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #go-nuts 14:32 -!- iant [~iant@216.239.45.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:38 -!- rejb [~rejb@unaffiliated/rejb] has joined #go-nuts 14:40 -!- iant [~iant@67.218.107.6] has joined #go-nuts 14:40 -!- mode/#go-nuts [+v iant] by ChanServ 14:41 -!- jumzi [~none@c-89-233-234-125.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:42 <+iant> nsf: gccgo currently uses a precision of 128 bits for floating point numbers 14:42 <+iant> It's hard to say what unlimited precision means for floating point 14:42 <+iant> I mean, in one sense it is easy to say, but when you have to round back to 32 or 64 bits it's harder to say 14:43 < nsf> I see, well yeah.. so my guesses about float's nature are quite right and Go spec says about floats "at least twice as many bits" 14:43 < nsf> yeah, exactly 14:43 < nsf> thanks for clarification :) 14:43 < aiju> "unlimited precision for floating point"? wtf? 14:44 < aiju> have i missed the introduction of the ∞ B RAM computer? 14:44 < nsf> initally I thought it makes sense to use mpq_t for constants 14:44 < nsf> but I guess it's not quite true 14:44 <+iant> I don't even know about mpq 14:45 < nsf> it's gmplib's type 14:45 <+iant> ah 14:45 < nsf> for rational numbers 14:45 < rm445> aiju: in the sense of Go consts. They're conceptually unlimited precision (realistically the compiler might barf) but get trimmed down when you put them in an actual variable. 14:46 -!- lmoura__ [~lauromour@186.215.206.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:46 < rm445> so the compiler has to generate code such that they are the Right Answer when put into a variable. 14:47 < aiju> blah 14:47 < aiju> i don't like that feature 14:48 < wrtp> aiju: what don't you like about it? 14:48 < aiju> seems overly difficult of it and i don't really see the purpose 14:48 < aiju> s/of it/to implement/ 14:49 <+iant> having untyped constants makes the lack of implicit type conversions work 14:49 -!- lmoura__ [~lauromour@186.215.206.130] has joined #go-nuts 14:49 < aiju> iant: i like that part 14:49 <+iant> then when you have an untyped constant, how big can they be? 14:49 <+iant> there is no obvious answer 14:49 < aiju> yeah, i don't think "infinite" is a good/practical answer 14:49 < nsf> aiju: it's a good answer 14:49 <+iant> the language spec does say that an implementation can impose a limit 14:49 < nsf> basically means "don't worry about the size" 14:49 < rm445> Moreover they make code do what it looks like on the page, which is generally a good thing. 14:50 < aiju> rm445: what do you mean? 14:50 <+iant> the limit just has to be big enough to make all normal code work 14:50 < aiju> iant: how is "normal code" defined? 14:50 <+iant> well, it's not 14:50 <+iant> experience, I guess 14:51 <+iant> I don't think either compiler accepts 1 << 1000000 14:51 < aiju> and i don't see any reason for such constants 14:51 < nsf> aiju: it's like having unlimited internet access megabytes-wise, but in reality of course it is limited by transfer rates.. the good part - you don't have to worry about each downloaded megabyte 14:51 < rm445> aiju: I mean that constants in source aren't going to overflow or lose precision if you have a lot of operations on them. What goes into a variable is the answer as though the constants had infinite size and precision. 14:53 < aiju> meh 14:53 < rm445> In practice I think there are fairly simple-to-work-out bounds on the amount of error that can enter each floating-point operation, so the compiler can keep track of whether or not errors in its big internal floating-point variables can creep into the last place of actual variable types. 14:55 -!- lmoura__ [~lauromour@186.215.206.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:55 < nsf> 640K ought to be enough for anybody 14:55 < nsf> except that: 14:55 < aiju> 128-bit ought to be enough for anybody 14:56 < nsf> inifity ought to be enough for anybody 14:56 < nsf> :D 14:56 < rm445> 640k bits of precision certainly ought to be! 14:56 < nsf> infinity* 14:56 < aiju> hahahahahahahaha 14:56 < skelterjohn> that would be quite precise 15:02 -!- skelterjohn [~jasmuth@c-68-45-238-234.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: skelterjohn] 15:04 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split 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foocraft, dropdrive, jbooth1, boscop_, ivan`, vpit3833, jnwhiteh, d_m, ptrb (+3 more) 16:15 < jokoon> oh great 16:15 < nsf> jokoon: well, I've never used ogre :) 16:15 -!- Netsplit over, joins: Venom_X 16:15 -!- ronnyyy [~quassel@p4FF1C6D8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #go-nuts 16:15 < nsf> I don't know why your overlay doesn't work 16:16 < skelterjohn> before my windows machine died from internal bleeding 16:16 < nsf> but I know that some GUIs are overlay based in ogre 16:16 < nsf> so.. it's the right place for a crosshair 16:16 -!- iant [~iant@nat/google/x-orryhzamdswvgbqe] has quit [Ping timeout: 242 seconds] 16:16 -!- sauerbraten [~sauerbrat@p508CB1B9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #go-nuts 16:16 -!- segy [~segfault@mail.hasno.info] has joined #go-nuts 16:16 -!- segy [~segfault@mail.hasno.info] has quit [Changing host] 16:16 -!- segy [~segfault@pdpc/supporter/active/segy] has joined #go-nuts 16:16 < jokoon> nsf I don't want to use those libraries, ogre3d is already one 16:16 < nsf> jokoon: I'm not saying that you should 16:17 < nsf> I'm just saying that GUIs use overlays and crosshair is a gui too, therefore you should use overlay 16:17 < nsf> or not 16:17 < nsf> frankly it doesn't matter 16:17 < nsf> just draw it somehow, who cares 16:17 -!- Electro^ [electro@c-bef570d5.033-10-67626721.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #go-nuts 16:18 -!- viirya_ [~viirya@cml506-25.csie.ntu.edu.tw] has joined #go-nuts 16:18 < jokoon> yes, and let's talk about go, because we're not on the proper channel 16:18 -!- larva_ [~larvanitr@ec2-46-51-171-183.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #go-nuts 16:18 < nsf> sure 16:18 -!- mpl [~mpl@smgl.fr.eu.org] has joined #go-nuts 16:19 < ww> how do i draw a crosshair in go? 16:19 * ww hides 16:19 < skelterjohn> launch a webserver and a browser, serve a crosshair image 16:19 < nsf> :D 16:19 -!- Fish [~Fish@exo3753.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Quit: So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish] 16:19 < nsf> crosshair := ` | 16:19 < nsf> -+- 16:19 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pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has joined #go-nuts 17:25 < nickbp> Interpol issued "RED notice" for Assange, who was merely wanted for questioning, but issues lower "ORANGE notice" for Ghadafhi 17:28 < aiju> ORANGE? 17:28 < aiju> where is jumzi if you need him 17:31 -!- dfr|mac [~dfr|work@ool-182e3fca.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:37 -!- prudhvi [~prudhvi@look.ma.i.am.on.ipv6.at.prudhvi.de] has joined #go-nuts 17:38 < prudhvi> Hi, I am woindering if go has any ORM package available? 17:38 < skelterjohn> what's ORM? 17:38 < prudhvi> Object-relational mapping? 17:38 < aiju> object retardedness^Wrelational model or something 17:38 < aiju> Go is not java 17:38 < skelterjohn> is this a database term? 17:38 < prudhvi> aiju: ORM is not java 17:38 < skelterjohn> aiju: no reason to scare off people who may be interested 17:39 < skelterjohn> prudhvi: I don't believe that I've seen anything for ORM with go 17:39 < aiju> as i get it, ORM is some way to map objects to RDBMS or something 17:39 < skelterjohn> go hasn't settled on any kind of standard db interface, either 17:39 -!- m4dh4tt3r [~Adium@c-69-181-223-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:40 < prudhvi> skelterjohn: Thanks skelterjohn 17:40 < skelterjohn> but, as aiju is hinting at, go distances itself a bit from OO modeling 17:40 -!- m4dh4tt3r [~Adium@c-69-181-223-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 17:40 < skelterjohn> there is no polymorphism, for instance, so a lot of the reasons why something like ORM makes sense in an OO language like java do not make sense for go 17:42 < skelterjohn> prudhvi: are you asking for any thing specifically? or just wondering 17:42 < prudhvi> I am just wondering. It would be cool if it existed 17:43 < prudhvi> would make it perfect for writing awesome web applications. 17:43 < skelterjohn> why is that? 17:43 < skelterjohn> i think it's already pretty useful for web apps 17:43 < wrtp> i don't see why there couldn't be a package that mapped between go types and db entries 17:43 < wrtp> using reflection 17:43 < skelterjohn> oh - is that what ORM is for? 17:43 < wrtp> it could work quite nicely 17:44 < aiju> i've seen ORM chart and they were not nice 17:44 < wrtp> i *think* that's what ORM is for :-) 17:44 < Namegduf> An ORM is for mapping objects in their object model into a relational database 17:44 < skelterjohn> i thought maybe some way to efficiently store objects when some share fields because of inheritance 17:44 < Namegduf> I would say that Go avoids the need for them due to not having an object model in the first place. 17:44 < skelterjohn> go has types with named fields 17:44 < Namegduf> Seriously, I think most of the reason they're needed is complexity in OO design 17:44 < skelterjohn> for what wrtp is suggesting, that's really all you need 17:44 < wrtp> Namegduf: i think that the attraction is that you manipulate your objects and the db changes accordingly 17:45 < wrtp> so you don't have to write lots of SELECT and UPDATE statements all the time 17:45 < wrtp> but i may be entirely wrong 17:45 < Namegduf> wrtp: I don't think so, they'd need a way to hook changes on arbitrary objects. 17:45 < wrtp> i've never used any kind of ORM 17:45 < Namegduf> But I think that the update command does not require SQL is an "advantage" 17:45 < Namegduf> For people scared of SQL 17:45 < wrtp> Namegduf: many languages *can* hook changes on arbitrary objects 17:46 < Namegduf> wrtp: But not all that ORMs are used in, at least not without horrible tricks. 17:46 < aiju> SELECT COUNT(VERSIONS) FROM SQL; overflows a 64-bit integer 17:46 < aiju> many languages *are* horrible tricks 17:46 < skelterjohn> Namegduf: you don't like overloading the assignment operator to invoke a notification callback? 17:47 < aiju> bwah 17:47 < aiju> this is the most ugly language feature i've ever heard of 17:47 < Namegduf> Let me think about that. 17:47 < Namegduf> Hmm. 17:47 < skelterjohn> Hmm. 17:47 < aiju> it is like being able to switch + and - in a language 17:47 < Namegduf> "No." 17:49 < Namegduf> But, yeah, I think most of the use of an ORM is to simply store/persist a bunch of objects and their state and relationships. I think when you take out the AbstractChickenFactoryBuilderFactory classes, it's not such a useful thing. 17:49 < Namegduf> Besides, if you don't want SQL you should probably use a NoSQL solution, right? 17:49 < aiju> what the fuck are those factorybuilder things after all 17:49 < ww> aiju i could imagine a language for dealing with groups and rings where treating + and - as generalised operators might be nice... 17:50 < Namegduf> A factory is an object that makes, on request, an object which is a subtype of an expected type. 17:50 < aiju> it's just extremely funny to read code in a highly context dependent language 17:50 < Namegduf> Instead of passing in objects of a subtype, you can pass in a factory object, and then the thing taking the factory can produce new objects which all behave as you deire. 17:50 < aiju> in an extreme case you basically have to read ALL the other code to figure out what one line does 17:51 < Namegduf> I think it's also known as the "factory pattern" 17:51 < aiju> Namegduf: and i thought constructors were ugly … 17:51 < Namegduf> "Factory" classes are my most disliked OO idiom 17:52 < Namegduf> Not my most disliked idiom overall, that dubious honour goes to Perl's "zero but true" idiom. 17:52 < aiju> static members, static methods, multiple inheritance fun, there are infinitely many! 17:52 < Namegduf> But overall... 17:52 < aiju> Namegduf: "zero but true"? 17:52 < skelterjohn> i'm curious too 17:52 < aiju> 0 is considered not false or something? 17:52 < Namegduf> 0 is. 17:52 < Namegduf> "0" is. 17:52 < aiju> hahahahaha 17:52 < Namegduf> "0something" is not. 17:53 < Namegduf> But behaves as 0 if used numerically. 17:53 < aiju> oh wow 17:53 < skelterjohn> i don't get it 17:53 < aiju> joys of implicit casts all over the place 17:53 < skelterjohn> "0hi"+5 -> 5? 17:53 < ww> worst: habit of writing methods that twiddle internal state instead of returning values 17:53 < Namegduf> I think so. 17:53 < skelterjohn> not... "0hi5"? 17:53 -!- JusticeFries_ [~JusticeFr@173-8-247-218-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: JusticeFries_] 17:53 < Namegduf> Perl has a list of special things which are considered false; while it includes the string "0" it does not include all strings evaluating to 0. 17:54 < skelterjohn> strings evaluating to zero... 17:54 < Namegduf> This can be used to permit true/false testing of your return value for success 17:54 < Namegduf> But still return '0' as a valid value 17:54 < skelterjohn> this is the worst idea i've ever heard 17:54 < Namegduf> As I understand it it's considered reasonable practice 17:55 < skelterjohn> standard and reasonable are not the same thing 17:55 < aiju> nah, it's not really the worst for me 17:55 < Namegduf> I'm sure it's possible in a few languages, but Perl is the only one which considers it anything but a ridiculous hack. 17:57 < ww> somehow factory functions are all over in go... i guess it's gotta be that way 17:58 < Namegduf> Functions are less bad than types for the job; still not sure they're all over. 17:58 < skelterjohn> are they? 17:58 < skelterjohn> i don't think i've written any. where do you see them? 17:59 < aiju> skelterjohn: New* 17:59 < ww> skelterjohn: sure, any time you need to initialise a type. NewFoo() functions 17:59 < Namegduf> Those aren't factory functions 17:59 < skelterjohn> that's not a factory function... 17:59 < Namegduf> They're constructors 17:59 -!- str1ngs [~strings@unaffiliated/str1ngs] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.0] 17:59 < ww> what's the difference? 17:59 < Namegduf> Factory functions in Go would be functions returning a given interface, but generating different real types. 17:59 < skelterjohn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factory_method_pattern 18:00 < Namegduf> Then you could pass one into code and that code could call your function to generate instances of the selected real type 18:00 < Namegduf> It's less terrible when it's a function, not a type of its own. 18:00 < aiju> the abusive use of types in OO is disgusting 18:01 < Namegduf> I think most of these OO patterns are instances of "My design isn't working, so let's add more design and abstraction until it does." 18:01 < ww> for example: http://golang.org/pkg/hash/crc64/ 18:01 -!- str1ngs [~strings@unaffiliated/str1ngs] has joined #go-nuts 18:01 < exch_> this is mainly why I stopped using C# after 9 years. The amount of boilerplate necessary to do something simple and the over-use of OO got really tedious 18:01 < ww> see New -> it gives a hash.Hash64 18:01 < ww> which is realy a CRC64 thing 18:01 < ww> so factory function, no? 18:01 < Namegduf> You could use that as a factory function, but it isn't designed primarily for use as one 18:02 < Namegduf> By passing it into code expecting a function returning a hash.Hash64, but letting you select which. 18:02 < aiju> exch_: after 9 years? 18:02 < exch_> yes 18:02 < ww> really? it's designed so that the different hash implementations can be swapped trivially without changing any other details in a program 18:02 < Namegduf> I once bought a C++ design book. 18:02 * ww actually read strousoup (sp?) years ago 18:02 < exch_> been using C# as my primary language since the beta in early 2001. I actually enjoyed it for a long time 18:02 < exch_> then I found Go 18:03 -!- JusticeFries [~JusticeFr@173-8-247-218-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #go-nuts 18:03 < aiju> all i've heard about C# made me stay away from the language. really far. 18:03 < skelterjohn> ww: right - if you pass crc64.New to a function that needs to generate stuff, then crc64.New is a factory 18:03 < skelterjohn> since you could pass it something else too 18:03 < Namegduf> It's not essentially a terrible thing to do 18:03 < Namegduf> It is design complexity, though, and if you're doing it regularly something weirdass is going on 18:03 < Namegduf> And having a special type for it is just perverse. 18:04 < skelterjohn> well, that's the only way you can pass functions in java :) 18:04 < Namegduf> It's a standard pattern in writing stuff with OO. 18:04 < aiju> types as a replace for lambdas in general is a truly ugly pattern 18:04 < Namegduf> Java is a special kind of stupid 18:04 < aiju> Go does it sometimes (sort.Sort) and i don't like it 18:05 -!- davisp [~davisp@li203-51.members.linode.com] has quit [Changing host] 18:05 -!- davisp [~davisp@couchdb/developer/davisp] has joined #go-nuts 18:05 < Namegduf> I once saw someone write x = (new Double(str)).doubleValue(); to convert a string into a double in Java. 18:05 < skelterjohn> aiju: sort.Sort is just a way around not having generics 18:05 < Namegduf> Not sure if that's the only way to do it, but... wow. 18:05 < skelterjohn> Namegduf: Double.parseDouble(str) 18:06 < aiju> Go doesn't need generics 18:06 < Namegduf> Making a second, intermediary type using an overloaded constructor then throwing it away, which cannot make the GC happier. 18:06 < skelterjohn> it wasn't intended to be done like the someone did it 18:06 < Namegduf> Hmm. 18:06 < Namegduf> But does that return a double or a Double? 18:06 < skelterjohn> a double 18:06 < skelterjohn> to get a Double, new Double(str) is all you need 18:06 < Namegduf> This is another instance of "special kind of stupid" 18:06 < aiju> wtfi the difference between double and Double 18:06 < aiju> do i want to know 18:06 < Namegduf> Double is an object. 18:06 < skelterjohn> one is 4 bytes 18:06 < Namegduf> double is not. 18:06 < skelterjohn> one is an object 18:06 < aiju> so what's the purpose 18:06 < aiju> *purpose? 18:07 < skelterjohn> sometimes you want a primitive to pass by value 18:07 < Namegduf> I think primitives are faster. 18:07 < skelterjohn> sometimes you want to be a weirdo and use the provided Double type 18:07 < aiju> yeah, but what the fuck is Double good for 18:07 < skelterjohn> java has implicit conversion between double and Double, now 18:07 < Namegduf> You can use it as an object 18:07 < skelterjohn> you can't use a double as a key in a map. you can use a Double, though 18:07 < aiju> wow 18:08 < Namegduf> It inherits from Object, can be stored like one, passes by reference... 18:08 < aiju> why the fuck do people like Java 18:08 < skelterjohn> all Object subclasses have a hashcode() function 18:08 < skelterjohn> so Double adds functionality 18:08 < aiju> every single language "feature" is enough to make it a TRULY disgusting language 18:08 < Namegduf> I think primitives are mostly useful for "Look, Java can run as fast as C!", and Double is used the rest of the time 18:08 < aiju> hahahahaha 18:08 < aiju> Java running as fast as C 18:08 < aiju> yes, if the C program runs on a PDP-11 18:09 < Namegduf> It is close to true, if you ignore RAM and startup time, and write it in a very unidiomatic way, I think. 18:09 < aiju> then Java could indeed by as fast as C 18:09 < aiju> almost! 18:09 < aiju> no real Java program i've seen ever was nearly as fast as any comparative C/C++ program 18:10 < Namegduf> Every Java liking person seems to be a huge, huge OO fan 18:10 < aiju> the Xilinx Verilog Compiler takes 30s (NO OVERSTATEMENT) just to parse 200 lines into an AST 18:10 < Namegduf> I've not met many people who profess to actually like it, though. 18:10 < skelterjohn> it is sort of the ultimate realization of OO 18:10 -!- boscop [~boscop@g227152143.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: OutOfTimeException: Allocation of TimeFrame failed due to lack of time. Terminating...] 18:11 -!- boscop [~boscop@g227152143.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts 18:12 < Namegduf> http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=464548 <- On zero but true. 18:12 < Namegduf> "Many functions -like the execute function in DBI- return 0E0 when they want to return a result that is ment to be zero but is 'boolean' true in tests" 18:14 < skelterjohn> this is one reason i like the fact that go only allows things of type boolean for conditionals 18:14 -!- nickbp [~nickbp@70-36-134-55.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 18:14 < ww> re: factories, i agree they are overused, but they do have their place 18:14 < Namegduf> Yes. 18:15 < Namegduf> ww: Their place is as functions and only where they're part of the simplest design for doing something. Normally when they show up it's a workaround of a design being overcomplex for no good reason. 18:16 < Namegduf> Passing a factory function into something isn't essentially a bad idea but it is a thing and you don't want to do it often. 18:16 * ww agrees 18:16 < Namegduf> skelterjohn: Oddly, that's one of the few things I *like* about Java. 18:17 < Namegduf> It has the same rule. 18:17 < ww> now actually i hope something eventually comes from all of this generics discussion... 18:17 < skelterjohn> i would like some form of generics - just because i like type safety 18:18 < ww> the lack of is biting me in an annoying way now, several almost identical but not quite types, having to repeat myself repeat myself to implement them... 18:18 -!- Project_2501 [~Marvin@82.84.71.132] has joined #go-nuts 18:19 < skelterjohn> well, you can do them with interface{} and then make a type-safe wrapper 18:20 < exch_> or slap in a preprocessor to do the code generation for you. *runs and hides* 18:20 < ww> skelterjohn: sure but it should be easier than that 18:20 < skelterjohn> there was an experiment with that a year ago, and it was neat, but it didn't take off 18:21 < ww> exch_: looked at that actually... 18:21 < skelterjohn> ww: i just use interface{} and type assertions for my containers 18:22 < aiju> i just don't use containers! 18:22 < Namegduf> I use a preprocessor 18:22 < Namegduf> It's called sed 18:22 < exch_> :P 18:22 < aiju> i craft my linked list by hand every time 18:22 < Namegduf> No, really 18:23 < taruti> Namegduf: haha 18:23 < Namegduf> I was using gofmt but it crapped itself on my code for a release or two. 18:23 < aiju> Namegduf: "the worst function call convention is call by text editor" 18:23 < Namegduf> It seems to be okay again, so I should revert to it. 18:23 < aiju> (some forth guy) 18:24 < aiju> really stupid question 18:24 < aiju> someone in here familiar with CP/M? :D 18:27 < nsf> private static final boolean 18:27 < nsf> lol 18:27 < aiju> nsf: that's nothing compared to C++ 18:27 < nsf> :) 18:27 < Namegduf> Static methods are a lesser hack to some. 18:28 < aiju> the standard defines a *please remove children from the room* 18:28 < aiju> rotected abstract virtual base pure virtual private destructor 18:28 < aiju> *protected 18:28 -!- cco3 [~conley@c-69-181-140-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 18:28 < Namegduf> They're basically a weirdass way to attach functions inside the encapsulation boundary of the class. 18:28 < Namegduf> final is *weird* 18:28 < aiju> final solution; /* to the Java question */ 18:28 < Namegduf> You're never supposed to use it in half of its meaning and the other half is entirely unrelated. 18:29 < aiju> C also has such keywords 18:29 < Namegduf> And it's not a case where you sometimes need it to actually solve a problem. 18:29 < aiju> e.g. static 18:29 < Namegduf> It just blocks subtyping. 18:29 < Namegduf> I once suggested someone use a static variable to catch and prevent recursion via an indirect mesh of functions in a single-threaded application. 18:29 -!- niemeyer [~niemeyer@196.212.75.150] has joined #go-nuts 18:30 < Namegduf> They yelled at me. :( 18:30 < aiju> blah 18:30 < aiju> why would you prevent recursion 18:30 < Namegduf> Basically because of a significant risk of making the stack explode 18:31 < Namegduf> It was in an error handler. 18:31 < aiju> oh lol 18:31 < Namegduf> An I/O error handler. 18:31 < jokoon> why isn't there const in go ? 18:31 < aiju> well, i'd us e..... a static variable 18:31 < Namegduf> Which did I/O to notifiy other clients. 18:31 < aiju> jokoon: probably because Plan 9 C doesn't have it either 18:31 < Namegduf> If a whole bunch dropped at once you'd get hilarious results 18:31 < aiju> and Plan 9 C doesn't have it because .. nobody knows 18:31 < jokoon> aiju, isn't const from C++ ? 18:32 < aiju> no 18:32 < aiju> C99 18:32 < nsf> const came from C++ 18:32 < nsf> to C 18:32 < aiju> Plan 9 C allows you to put const on your variables 18:32 < aiju> but it's ignored 18:32 < aiju> so i suppose it was a conscious decision 18:32 -!- cco3 [~conley@c-69-181-140-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:32 < Namegduf> Basically it isn't considered worth it. 18:32 < jokoon> const is shit, it doesn't make its way in the executable 18:32 < skelterjohn> const is not the most useful thing ever 18:33 < aiju> i'd somewhat like to see const 18:33 < skelterjohn> of course not - it's entirely a compile-time check 18:33 < nsf> Go has a nice concept of consts 18:33 < aiju> eh you could put const into the executable 18:33 < Namegduf> It's a bit of a pain to manage and the safety gain was not deemed worth it. 18:33 < aiju> by placing code into the .text or .rodata section 18:33 < Namegduf> C++ const does not work that way 18:33 < aiju> allowing it to be shared between processes 18:33 < skelterjohn> no idea what a .text or .rodata section is 18:33 < Namegduf> Multiple pointers referencing the same thing can be const or not const and have different things writable 18:34 < aiju> skelterjohn: parts of an executable 18:34 < jokoon> I'm reading some question on stackoverflow about what is a decompiler, I wonder if in the end the hardest language to decompile might not be C++ 18:34 < Namegduf> Er, and have it writable or not to different bits. 18:34 < aiju> skelterjohn: both are read only once in memory 18:34 -!- keithcascio [~keithcasc@nat/google/session] has joined #go-nuts 18:34 < aiju> skelterjohn: and .text (dunno about .rodata) is shared between processes 18:34 < aiju> so if you run 100 copies of sh, only one text section is actually in memory 18:34 < aiju> really old UNIX feature 18:34 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: cw, yebyen, tokuhiro_, mpl, jbooth1, d_m, foocraft, vpit3833, vinisterx, dropdrive, (+4 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 18:34 -!- hcatlin [~hcatlin@pdpc/supporter/professional/hcatlin] has joined #go-nuts 18:34 -!- niemeyer [~niemeyer@196.212.75.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:35 < aiju> fucking splitnode 18:35 < jokoon> freenode is GOing NUTS 18:35 < aiju> hahahaha 18:35 < nsf> :) 18:35 < aiju> is it that hard to keep a fucking IRC server running 18:35 -!- keithcascio [~keithcasc@nat/google/session] has quit [Changing host] 18:35 -!- keithcascio [~keithcasc@nat/google/x-rwymkwbkcuhosxgx] has joined #go-nuts 18:35 < skelterjohn> freenode goes nuts every three hours 18:35 < jokoon> i wonder why though, irc is such an old protocol 18:35 -!- Netsplit over, joins: mpl, nixness, foocraft, tokuhiro_, dropdrive, jbooth1, ivan`, vpit3833, jnwhiteh, d_m (+4 more) 18:36 < jokoon> what kind of maintenance are people doing on an irc server ? 18:36 < nsf> uhm.. guys do you know any tool that can help me with grammar building? 18:36 < nsf> like ANTLR works or something 18:36 < nsf> but smaller 18:36 < aiju> nsf: yacc? 18:36 < aiju> :> 18:36 < jokoon> bison 18:36 < nsf> and not "all in one" 18:36 < aiju> bison is a POS 18:36 < nsf> nonono 18:36 < nsf> I don't need a compiler gen, I use lemon 18:36 < skelterjohn> i once made a python tool that would take a grammar and parse text into a syntax tree 18:36 < jokoon> i prefer oranges 18:36 < nsf> I need a kind of advanced text editor 18:36 < skelterjohn> i wish i knew where it was 18:36 < nsf> for grammars :) 18:36 < skelterjohn> it was sweet 18:36 < aiju> jokoon = jumzi? 18:36 < jokoon> aiju, no 18:37 < aiju> nsf: i use my normal text editor 18:37 < jokoon> who is jumzi ? 18:37 < Namegduf> IRC is a delicate protocol 18:37 < skelterjohn> jokoon: that's what you would say if you were jumzi 18:37 < Namegduf> And hard to improve on 18:37 < aiju> some guy in here who likes oranges 18:37 < Namegduf> Also Freenode has a bad habit of getting DDoSed, according to one of its staff. 18:37 -!- cenuij [~cenuij@base/student/cenuij] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:37 < jokoon> ... lol 18:37 < jokoon> what's lemon btw ? 18:38 < skelterjohn> that doesn't surprise me 18:38 < skelterjohn> jokoon: something you have to be careful about googling 18:38 < aiju> probably hipster yacc 18:38 < nsf> http://www.hwaci.com/sw/lemon/ 18:38 < nsf> i like one thing about it 18:38 < nsf> it doesn't have writeable global state 18:38 < jokoon> is it easier than yacc or bison ? 18:39 < nsf> it means I can use it in threads easily 18:39 < aiju> just like goyacc 18:39 < nsf> yes, it's simpler 18:39 < aiju> or Plan 9 yacc 18:39 < aiju> i couldn't wish yacc to be any simpler 18:39 * jokoon dreams or python-like indented C++ 18:39 < aiju> jokoon: YUCK 18:39 < nsf> lemon automatically extracts terminals 18:39 < nsf> and generates defines 18:39 < nsf> also it uses named variables 18:39 < nsf> instead of $1 $2 $3 18:40 < skelterjohn> jokoon: you can indent C++ :) 18:40 -!- belkiss [~kvirc@drn13-1-78-235-168-105.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #go-nuts 18:40 < jokoon> skelterjohn I meant without the curly braces 18:40 < nsf> but it has some drawbacks too 18:40 < nsf> like you can't insert an action in the middle of a rule 18:40 < jokoon> and the semicolon 18:40 < aiju> python style syntax is great until your program reaches 100 lines 18:40 < skelterjohn> jokoon: go is halfway there, then 18:41 < skelterjohn> also, curly braces are good. 18:41 < jokoon> skelterjohn go doesn't work with a curly brace at the beginning of the line 18:41 < jokoon> I hate that about go 18:41 < aiju> i hate people who write that kind of code 18:41 < jokoon> the K&R style 18:42 < jokoon> aiju which kind ? 18:42 < skelterjohn> jokoon: yes it does... 18:42 < aiju> if(foo) \n { 18:42 < aiju> i find it terribly ugly 18:42 -!- belkiss [~kvirc@drn13-1-78-235-168-105.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:42 < jokoon> I find it more structured 18:42 < aiju> one thing Java programmers got right 18:43 < aiju> the worst is 18:43 < aiju> if(foo) 18:43 < aiju> { 18:43 < jokoon> oddly the K&R style does it on fucntion, not on conditionnales 18:43 < aiju> foo 18:43 < aiju> } 18:43 < skelterjohn> jokoon: http://pastebin.com/aNUbGmmA 18:43 -!- cco3 [~conley@c-69-181-140-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 18:43 < aiju> jokoon: functions are a different story 18:43 < skelterjohn> oh you mean braces after conditions 18:43 < skelterjohn> get over it 18:43 < skelterjohn> :) 18:44 < skelterjohn> the go community got those arguments out of its system about a year ago 18:44 < jokoon> skelterjohn http://pastebin.com/Gdsw6krK 18:44 < jokoon> I mean it that way 18:44 < aiju> if you think \0 terminated strings are ugly 18:44 < aiju> CP/M has $ terminated strings :D 18:44 < skelterjohn> yeah, don't do that 18:45 < jokoon> skelterjohn that's the only thing I don't like in go 18:45 < skelterjohn> like i said 18:45 -!- edsrzf [~kelvan@122-61-221-144.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #go-nuts 18:46 < jokoon> that's why I like the python indenting style 18:46 < jokoon> no more curly braces 18:46 < KBme> ha 18:47 < jokoon> KBme: exactly what I meant 18:47 < KBme> u troll 18:47 < jokoon> groumf huga huga 18:47 < nsf> I think that kind of syntax doesn't work for languages with types 18:48 < nsf> I've seen boo and geanie 18:48 < nsf> both are ugly 18:48 -!- nutate [~rseymour@cacsag4.usc.edu] has joined #go-nuts 18:48 -!- dropdrive [~dropdrive@cpe-72-227-159-70.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:48 -!- tarrant [~tarrant@216.83.139.130] has joined #go-nuts 18:48 < nsf> http://boo.codehaus.org/ http://live.gnome.org/Genie 18:48 < skelterjohn> how do types affect it? 18:49 < nsf> I don't know 18:49 -!- dropdrive [~dropdrive@cpe-72-227-159-70.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 18:49 < nsf> it just looks ugly 18:49 < skelterjohn> ok 18:49 < skelterjohn> correlation/causation, etc 18:49 -!- tarrant [~tarrant@216.83.139.130] has quit [Client Quit] 18:49 < aiju> actually i can imagine it with Go 18:49 < nsf> python is ok though 18:49 < aiju> func foo(a, b int): 18:49 -!- tarrant [~tarrant@216.83.139.130] has joined #go-nuts 18:49 < aiju> if a > b: 18:49 < aiju> b = 4 18:49 < aiju> blah fucked the indentation up 18:50 < aiju> i just don't consider it practical 18:50 < skelterjohn> aiju: i have no idea what point you're trying to make 18:50 < KBme> nonprinting for syntax is a huge mistake 18:50 < jokoon> btw why should one use spaces instead of tabs ? what use are tabs then ? 18:50 < aiju> skelterjohn: that i don't get nsf's reasoning 18:50 < aiju> i use tabs 18:50 < nsf> aiju: well your example is simple 18:50 < aiju> is there some Go convention to use spaces i missed? 18:50 < nsf> try something more typeful 18:50 < skelterjohn> jokoon: if you use spaces, it lines up no matter what text display you use 18:51 < KBme> in python you'll get a pretty bad beating if you use tabs ☺ 18:51 < nsf> gofmt uses tabs 18:51 < skelterjohn> i use tabs 18:51 < nsf> thank god 18:51 < aiju> KBme: hahahaha i use tabs even with python 18:51 -!- nictuku [~nictuku@cetico.org] has joined #go-nuts 18:51 < aiju> people told me that i write C in python 18:51 < KBme> aiju: don't paste code to #python or they'll pick you apart ;) 18:51 < nsf> aiju: yeah, all C programmers do that 18:52 < aiju> ofc nobody can explain why i should dig through millions of libraries instead of just write it using five lines of primitives 18:52 < nsf> hahaha 18:52 < nsf> because there are really nice python libraries :) 18:52 < aiju> "HAHAHAH RETARD JUST USE WEIRDLIBRARY.WEIRFUNCTION" 18:52 < KBme> it's teh oo way 18:52 < nsf> that's why it's so popular 18:52 < aiju> i wrote a package manager in python 18:53 < aiju> i spent so much time arguing with the interpreter 18:57 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053001122.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 18:58 -!- Eridius [~kevin@unaffiliated/eridius] has joined #go-nuts 18:58 -!- cco3 [~conley@c-69-181-140-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:01 -!- Project-2501 [~Marvin@82.84.95.247] has joined #go-nuts 19:05 -!- Project_2501 [~Marvin@82.84.71.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:13 -!- stalled 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