--- Log opened Fri Mar 04 00:00:35 2011
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00:47 < cmccabe> hi
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01:02 < plexdev> http://is.gd/97CaU0 by [Robert Griesemer] in
go/src/cmd/gofmt/ -- gofmt: exclude test file that is not legal Go
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01:13 < |Craig|> any ideas why my tls handshake is taking forever?  (more
than 200 seconds anyway, I haven't see it finish).  Server is in Go with tls.Conn
and client is in python with Twisted.  No errors on either side, and send data
does not go through.  This is my first attempt at tls, so I may be doing something
rather foolish.
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01:34 < plexdev> http://is.gd/xTI4ph by [Andrew Gerrand] in go/doc/ -- doc:
describe platform-specific conventions in code.html
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02:21 < plexdev> http://is.gd/lRGInv by [Andrew Gerrand] in go/doc/ -- doc:
add "implements" question to FAQ
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05:23 < Xacker> hello
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05:39 < plexdev> http://is.gd/gtaz74 by [Andrew Gerrand] in go/doc/ -- doc:
there's no such thing as a .cgo file
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07:29 < ekontsevoy> Can I compile my Go code into shared libraries (so) to
use them from other programs?
07:33 < Namegduf> No.
07:33 < ekontsevoy> Thanks.  ;-( I keep checking, every 6 months or so.
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07:54 < taruti> ekontsevoy: what are you trying to do?
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08:36 < taruti> Has anyone got a version of sync.Mutex that writes a call
trace upon Lock/Unlock to stderr handy?
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08:43 < wrtp> taruti: why not just temporarily alter your copy of the sync
package?
08:44 < wrtp> if you've got a hard-to-find race condition you might want to
use print rather than fmt.Print as it doesn't yield
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08:48 < wrtp> isn't it just two lines of code that you need?
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08:49 < taruti> wrtp: with traces?
08:49 < wrtp> do you want the full stack trace each time, or just the
caller?
08:50 < taruti> full, but I'll try printfs first
08:50 < wrtp> taruti: you might find this useful:
http://pastebin.com/fyYR14N3
08:51 < wrtp> it'll slow things down, but maybe that doesn't matter
08:51 < wrtp> i've found it very useful in the paste
08:51 < wrtp> s/paste/past/
08:52 < wrtp> it returns a string representation of the stack, all on one
line, suitable for use with log
08:53 < taruti> thanks
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13:30 < skelterjohn> mornin
13:30 < skelterjohn> g
13:32 < nsf> :)
13:33 < skelterjohn> hows things
13:35 * nsf is busy writing C killer
13:36 < skelterjohn> do i get royalties for the @ operator?
13:36 < schmrkc> A C killer, eh?
13:36 < nsf> skelterjohn: credits, sure, no royalties sorry :)
13:36 < skelterjohn> i want a percent of your profits, dammit!
13:36 < nsf> ok, take all 100%
13:37 < skelterjohn> thank you.
13:37 < nsf> out of 0
13:37 < skelterjohn> you just think it's *likely* to be zero
13:37 < nsf> I think no one will use my language
13:37 < nsf> :)
13:37 < nsf> even _if_ I'll finish it
13:37 < skelterjohn> i will.  i'll even pay $5 to do so
13:38 < skelterjohn> guaranteeing royalties of $5!
13:38 < rm445> nsf: what are the features of your language?
13:38 < nsf> rm445: basically it will look like a stripped version of Go
13:39 < nsf> and other features are TBD
13:39 < nsf> there are some ideas
13:40 < skelterjohn> are you writing the compiler in go?
13:40 < nsf> no, in C++
13:40 < skelterjohn> @_@
13:40 < nsf> it's a perfect choice for a compiler
13:40 < nsf> at the moment
13:41 < rm445> you should start with a small C compiler and gradually
bootstrap it into a [your language] compiler.
13:42 < nsf> at the moment my priority is to get something that works
13:43 < nsf> and probably compiles to C
13:43 < nsf> or LLVM bytecode
13:43 < nsf> and that's a lot of work
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13:46 < nsf> x := 5 + -+-+-+-6
13:46 < nsf> valid go code :)
13:46 < nsf> x := 5+-+-+-+-6
13:46 < nsf> looks nice, lol
13:53 < schmrkc> How will this kill C?
13:54 < nsf> it won't, don't worry
13:55 < schmrkc> I'm not worried.
13:55 < nsf> thou shall not kill
13:55 < schmrkc> I find C quite pleasent.
13:56 < nsf> honestly I'm just making another experimental language, for fun
13:56 < nsf> and it should be a good experience for a programmer too
13:56 < exch> the experimental ones are the most fun :)
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14:00 < schmrkc> cool beans.  What nice features are you bringing to it?
14:00 < schmrkc> I'd like a forth with these channel things
14:00 < nsf> concurrency won't be a part of this language
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14:00 * exch was working on a 'goified' factor
14:01 < nsf> I'm heading very much towards C
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14:01 < yiyus> schmrkc: you can use channels and goroutines in retroforth
14:01 < yiyus> with the go version of the vm
14:01 < nsf> first priority is a clean context-independent grammar, then
modules system, then we'll see
14:02 < nsf> methods will go in, interfaces (probably in a modified form)
will go in
14:02 < nsf> most likely
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14:03 < exch> https://gist.github.com/854644 2 examples of the language I am
working with atm.  I am having some problems getting the combinator
implementations working in the compiler though
14:03 < exch> must spend some quality time brainstorming on that
14:03 < schmrkc> yiyus: oh very cool.  too bad its retroforth, but very nice
:)
14:03 < schmrkc> exch: goified factor seems a bit fun too.
14:03 < exch> ya
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14:06 < nsf> iant: you're using mpfr_t in gofrontend's lexer, I thought Go
requires arbitrary-precision for everything..  or maybe I'm wrong about mpfr's
limited precision?
14:07 < nsf> or maybe it simply doesn't matter due to float's nature?
14:07 < skelterjohn> i guess golang has really attracted the language
weirdos
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14:08 < skelterjohn> i feel like the only normal kid here
14:08 < exch> hehe
14:08 < nsf> skelterjohn: Go is a place of hope amongst OOP hell
14:08 < skelterjohn> time to go work on my javascript IDE for go
14:11 < nsf> "Implementation restriction: A compiler may implement numeric
constants by choosing an internal representation with at least twice as many bits
as any machine type; for floating-point values, both the mantissa and exponent
must be twice as large."
14:11 < nsf> ah, I see now
14:14 < nsf> and I guess I was wrong about mpfr's limited precision
14:14 < nsf> too
14:14 < nsf> well, it is limited, but it's quite big
14:14 < nsf> good then
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14:42 <+iant> nsf: gccgo currently uses a precision of 128 bits for floating
point numbers
14:42 <+iant> It's hard to say what unlimited precision means for floating
point
14:42 <+iant> I mean, in one sense it is easy to say, but when you have to
round back to 32 or 64 bits it's harder to say
14:43 < nsf> I see, well yeah..  so my guesses about float's nature are
quite right and Go spec says about floats "at least twice as many bits"
14:43 < nsf> yeah, exactly
14:43 < nsf> thanks for clarification :)
14:43 < aiju> "unlimited precision for floating point"?  wtf?
14:44 < aiju> have i missed the introduction of the ∞ B RAM computer?
14:44 < nsf> initally I thought it makes sense to use mpq_t for constants
14:44 < nsf> but I guess it's not quite true
14:44 <+iant> I don't even know about mpq
14:45 < nsf> it's gmplib's type
14:45 <+iant> ah
14:45 < nsf> for rational numbers
14:45 < rm445> aiju: in the sense of Go consts.  They're conceptually
unlimited precision (realistically the compiler might barf) but get trimmed down
when you put them in an actual variable.
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14:46 < rm445> so the compiler has to generate code such that they are the
Right Answer when put into a variable.
14:47 < aiju> blah
14:47 < aiju> i don't like that feature
14:48 < wrtp> aiju: what don't you like about it?
14:48 < aiju> seems overly difficult of it and i don't really see the
purpose
14:48 < aiju> s/of it/to implement/
14:49 <+iant> having untyped constants makes the lack of implicit type
conversions work
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14:49 < aiju> iant: i like that part
14:49 <+iant> then when you have an untyped constant, how big can they be?
14:49 <+iant> there is no obvious answer
14:49 < aiju> yeah, i don't think "infinite" is a good/practical answer
14:49 < nsf> aiju: it's a good answer
14:49 <+iant> the language spec does say that an implementation can impose a
limit
14:49 < nsf> basically means "don't worry about the size"
14:49 < rm445> Moreover they make code do what it looks like on the page,
which is generally a good thing.
14:50 < aiju> rm445: what do you mean?
14:50 <+iant> the limit just has to be big enough to make all normal code
work
14:50 < aiju> iant: how is "normal code" defined?
14:50 <+iant> well, it's not
14:50 <+iant> experience, I guess
14:51 <+iant> I don't think either compiler accepts 1 << 1000000
14:51 < aiju> and i don't see any reason for such constants
14:51 < nsf> aiju: it's like having unlimited internet access
megabytes-wise, but in reality of course it is limited by transfer rates..  the
good part - you don't have to worry about each downloaded megabyte
14:51 < rm445> aiju: I mean that constants in source aren't going to
overflow or lose precision if you have a lot of operations on them.  What goes
into a variable is the answer as though the constants had infinite size and
precision.
14:53 < aiju> meh
14:53 < rm445> In practice I think there are fairly simple-to-work-out
bounds on the amount of error that can enter each floating-point operation, so the
compiler can keep track of whether or not errors in its big internal
floating-point variables can creep into the last place of actual variable types.
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14:55 < nsf> 640K ought to be enough for anybody
14:55 < nsf> except that:
14:55 < aiju> 128-bit ought to be enough for anybody
14:56 < nsf> inifity ought to be enough for anybody
14:56 < nsf> :D
14:56 < rm445> 640k bits of precision certainly ought to be!
14:56 < nsf> infinity*
14:56 < aiju> hahahahahahahaha
14:56 < skelterjohn> that would be quite precise
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16:10 < jokoon> should I do a counter-strike crosshair with an overlay, or
rather with a manual object /
16:10 < jokoon> ?
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16:10 < jokoon> oops
16:11 < jokoon> bad channel
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16:13 < skelterjohn> jokoon: I prefer just a white dot
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16:13 < jokoon> skelterjohn, yes okay, but how do yu do it ?
16:13 < skelterjohn> in the q3 settings you can just iterate through the
crosshairs :)
16:14 < cenuij> quakelive?  :)
16:14 < jokoon> ...  damn I meant to ask on the ogre3d channel
16:14 < cenuij> ;)
16:15 < nsf> overlay is fine
16:15 < skelterjohn> i played quakelive for a bit
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16:15 < jokoon> ...  my overlay doesn't show
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16:15 < jokoon> oh great
16:15 < nsf> jokoon: well, I've never used ogre :)
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16:15 < nsf> I don't know why your overlay doesn't work
16:16 < skelterjohn> before my windows machine died from internal bleeding
16:16 < nsf> but I know that some GUIs are overlay based in ogre
16:16 < nsf> so..  it's the right place for a crosshair
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16:16 < jokoon> nsf I don't want to use those libraries, ogre3d is already
one
16:16 < nsf> jokoon: I'm not saying that you should
16:17 < nsf> I'm just saying that GUIs use overlays and crosshair is a gui
too, therefore you should use overlay
16:17 < nsf> or not
16:17 < nsf> frankly it doesn't matter
16:17 < nsf> just draw it somehow, who cares
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16:18 < jokoon> yes, and let's talk about go, because we're not on the
proper channel
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16:18 < nsf> sure
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16:19 < ww> how do i draw a crosshair in go?
16:19 * ww hides
16:19 < skelterjohn> launch a webserver and a browser, serve a crosshair
image
16:19 < nsf> :D
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16:19 < nsf> crosshair := ` |
16:19 < nsf> -+-
16:19 < nsf> | `
16:20 < nsf> fmt.Println(crosshair)
16:20 < nsf> lol
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17:25 < nickbp> Interpol issued "RED notice" for Assange, who was merely
wanted for questioning, but issues lower "ORANGE notice" for Ghadafhi
17:28 < aiju> ORANGE?
17:28 < aiju> where is jumzi if you need him
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17:38 < prudhvi> Hi, I am woindering if go has any ORM package available?
17:38 < skelterjohn> what's ORM?
17:38 < prudhvi> Object-relational mapping?
17:38 < aiju> object retardedness^Wrelational model or something
17:38 < aiju> Go is not java
17:38 < skelterjohn> is this a database term?
17:38 < prudhvi> aiju: ORM is not java
17:38 < skelterjohn> aiju: no reason to scare off people who may be
interested
17:39 < skelterjohn> prudhvi: I don't believe that I've seen anything for
ORM with go
17:39 < aiju> as i get it, ORM is some way to map objects to RDBMS or
something
17:39 < skelterjohn> go hasn't settled on any kind of standard db interface,
either
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17:40 < prudhvi> skelterjohn: Thanks skelterjohn
17:40 < skelterjohn> but, as aiju is hinting at, go distances itself a bit
from OO modeling
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17:40 < skelterjohn> there is no polymorphism, for instance, so a lot of the
reasons why something like ORM makes sense in an OO language like java do not make
sense for go
17:42 < skelterjohn> prudhvi: are you asking for any thing specifically?  or
just wondering
17:42 < prudhvi> I am just wondering.  It would be cool if it existed
17:43 < prudhvi> would make it perfect for writing awesome web applications.
17:43 < skelterjohn> why is that?
17:43 < skelterjohn> i think it's already pretty useful for web apps
17:43 < wrtp> i don't see why there couldn't be a package that mapped
between go types and db entries
17:43 < wrtp> using reflection
17:43 < skelterjohn> oh - is that what ORM is for?
17:43 < wrtp> it could work quite nicely
17:44 < aiju> i've seen ORM chart and they were not nice
17:44 < wrtp> i *think* that's what ORM is for :-)
17:44 < Namegduf> An ORM is for mapping objects in their object model into a
relational database
17:44 < skelterjohn> i thought maybe some way to efficiently store objects
when some share fields because of inheritance
17:44 < Namegduf> I would say that Go avoids the need for them due to not
having an object model in the first place.
17:44 < skelterjohn> go has types with named fields
17:44 < Namegduf> Seriously, I think most of the reason they're needed is
complexity in OO design
17:44 < skelterjohn> for what wrtp is suggesting, that's really all you need
17:44 < wrtp> Namegduf: i think that the attraction is that you manipulate
your objects and the db changes accordingly
17:45 < wrtp> so you don't have to write lots of SELECT and UPDATE
statements all the time
17:45 < wrtp> but i may be entirely wrong
17:45 < Namegduf> wrtp: I don't think so, they'd need a way to hook changes
on arbitrary objects.
17:45 < wrtp> i've never used any kind of ORM
17:45 < Namegduf> But I think that the update command does not require SQL
is an "advantage"
17:45 < Namegduf> For people scared of SQL
17:45 < wrtp> Namegduf: many languages *can* hook changes on arbitrary
objects
17:46 < Namegduf> wrtp: But not all that ORMs are used in, at least not
without horrible tricks.
17:46 < aiju> SELECT COUNT(VERSIONS) FROM SQL; overflows a 64-bit integer
17:46 < aiju> many languages *are* horrible tricks
17:46 < skelterjohn> Namegduf: you don't like overloading the assignment
operator to invoke a notification callback?
17:47 < aiju> bwah
17:47 < aiju> this is the most ugly language feature i've ever heard of
17:47 < Namegduf> Let me think about that.
17:47 < Namegduf> Hmm.
17:47 < skelterjohn> Hmm.
17:47 < aiju> it is like being able to switch + and - in a language
17:47 < Namegduf> "No."
17:49 < Namegduf> But, yeah, I think most of the use of an ORM is to simply
store/persist a bunch of objects and their state and relationships.  I think when
you take out the AbstractChickenFactoryBuilderFactory classes, it's not such a
useful thing.
17:49 < Namegduf> Besides, if you don't want SQL you should probably use a
NoSQL solution, right?
17:49 < aiju> what the fuck are those factorybuilder things after all
17:49 < ww> aiju i could imagine a language for dealing with groups and
rings where treating + and - as generalised operators might be nice...
17:50 < Namegduf> A factory is an object that makes, on request, an object
which is a subtype of an expected type.
17:50 < aiju> it's just extremely funny to read code in a highly context
dependent language
17:50 < Namegduf> Instead of passing in objects of a subtype, you can pass
in a factory object, and then the thing taking the factory can produce new objects
which all behave as you deire.
17:50 < aiju> in an extreme case you basically have to read ALL the other
code to figure out what one line does
17:51 < Namegduf> I think it's also known as the "factory pattern"
17:51 < aiju> Namegduf: and i thought constructors were ugly …
17:51 < Namegduf> "Factory" classes are my most disliked OO idiom
17:52 < Namegduf> Not my most disliked idiom overall, that dubious honour
goes to Perl's "zero but true" idiom.
17:52 < aiju> static members, static methods, multiple inheritance fun,
there are infinitely many!
17:52 < Namegduf> But overall...
17:52 < aiju> Namegduf: "zero but true"?
17:52 < skelterjohn> i'm curious too
17:52 < aiju> 0 is considered not false or something?
17:52 < Namegduf> 0 is.
17:52 < Namegduf> "0" is.
17:52 < aiju> hahahahaha
17:52 < Namegduf> "0something" is not.
17:53 < Namegduf> But behaves as 0 if used numerically.
17:53 < aiju> oh wow
17:53 < skelterjohn> i don't get it
17:53 < aiju> joys of implicit casts all over the place
17:53 < skelterjohn> "0hi"+5 -> 5?
17:53 < ww> worst: habit of writing methods that twiddle internal state
instead of returning values
17:53 < Namegduf> I think so.
17:53 < skelterjohn> not...  "0hi5"?
17:53 -!- JusticeFries_
[~JusticeFr@173-8-247-218-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit:
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17:53 < Namegduf> Perl has a list of special things which are considered
false; while it includes the string "0" it does not include all strings evaluating
to 0.
17:54 < skelterjohn> strings evaluating to zero...
17:54 < Namegduf> This can be used to permit true/false testing of your
return value for success
17:54 < Namegduf> But still return '0' as a valid value
17:54 < skelterjohn> this is the worst idea i've ever heard
17:54 < Namegduf> As I understand it it's considered reasonable practice
17:55 < skelterjohn> standard and reasonable are not the same thing
17:55 < aiju> nah, it's not really the worst for me
17:55 < Namegduf> I'm sure it's possible in a few languages, but Perl is the
only one which considers it anything but a ridiculous hack.
17:57 < ww> somehow factory functions are all over in go...  i guess it's
gotta be that way
17:58 < Namegduf> Functions are less bad than types for the job; still not
sure they're all over.
17:58 < skelterjohn> are they?
17:58 < skelterjohn> i don't think i've written any.  where do you see them?
17:59 < aiju> skelterjohn: New*
17:59 < ww> skelterjohn: sure, any time you need to initialise a type.
NewFoo() functions
17:59 < Namegduf> Those aren't factory functions
17:59 < skelterjohn> that's not a factory function...
17:59 < Namegduf> They're constructors
17:59 -!- str1ngs [~strings@unaffiliated/str1ngs] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.0]
17:59 < ww> what's the difference?
17:59 < Namegduf> Factory functions in Go would be functions returning a
given interface, but generating different real types.
17:59 < skelterjohn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factory_method_pattern
18:00 < Namegduf> Then you could pass one into code and that code could call
your function to generate instances of the selected real type
18:00 < Namegduf> It's less terrible when it's a function, not a type of its
own.
18:00 < aiju> the abusive use of types in OO is disgusting
18:01 < Namegduf> I think most of these OO patterns are instances of "My
design isn't working, so let's add more design and abstraction until it does."
18:01 < ww> for example: http://golang.org/pkg/hash/crc64/
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18:01 < exch_> this is mainly why I stopped using C# after 9 years.  The
amount of boilerplate necessary to do something simple and the over-use of OO got
really tedious
18:01 < ww> see New -> it gives a hash.Hash64
18:01 < ww> which is realy a CRC64 thing
18:01 < ww> so factory function, no?
18:01 < Namegduf> You could use that as a factory function, but it isn't
designed primarily for use as one
18:02 < Namegduf> By passing it into code expecting a function returning a
hash.Hash64, but letting you select which.
18:02 < aiju> exch_: after 9 years?
18:02 < exch_> yes
18:02 < ww> really?  it's designed so that the different hash
implementations can be swapped trivially without changing any other details in a
program
18:02 < Namegduf> I once bought a C++ design book.
18:02 * ww actually read strousoup (sp?) years ago
18:02 < exch_> been using C# as my primary language since the beta in early
2001.  I actually enjoyed it for a long time
18:02 < exch_> then I found Go
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18:03 < aiju> all i've heard about C# made me stay away from the language.
really far.
18:03 < skelterjohn> ww: right - if you pass crc64.New to a function that
needs to generate stuff, then crc64.New is a factory
18:03 < skelterjohn> since you could pass it something else too
18:03 < Namegduf> It's not essentially a terrible thing to do
18:03 < Namegduf> It is design complexity, though, and if you're doing it
regularly something weirdass is going on
18:03 < Namegduf> And having a special type for it is just perverse.
18:04 < skelterjohn> well, that's the only way you can pass functions in
java :)
18:04 < Namegduf> It's a standard pattern in writing stuff with OO.
18:04 < aiju> types as a replace for lambdas in general is a truly ugly
pattern
18:04 < Namegduf> Java is a special kind of stupid
18:04 < aiju> Go does it sometimes (sort.Sort) and i don't like it
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18:05 < Namegduf> I once saw someone write x = (new
Double(str)).doubleValue(); to convert a string into a double in Java.
18:05 < skelterjohn> aiju: sort.Sort is just a way around not having
generics
18:05 < Namegduf> Not sure if that's the only way to do it, but...  wow.
18:05 < skelterjohn> Namegduf: Double.parseDouble(str)
18:06 < aiju> Go doesn't need generics
18:06 < Namegduf> Making a second, intermediary type using an overloaded
constructor then throwing it away, which cannot make the GC happier.
18:06 < skelterjohn> it wasn't intended to be done like the someone did it
18:06 < Namegduf> Hmm.
18:06 < Namegduf> But does that return a double or a Double?
18:06 < skelterjohn> a double
18:06 < skelterjohn> to get a Double, new Double(str) is all you need
18:06 < Namegduf> This is another instance of "special kind of stupid"
18:06 < aiju> wtfi the difference between double and Double
18:06 < aiju> do i want to know
18:06 < Namegduf> Double is an object.
18:06 < skelterjohn> one is 4 bytes
18:06 < Namegduf> double is not.
18:06 < skelterjohn> one is an object
18:06 < aiju> so what's the purpose
18:06 < aiju> *purpose?
18:07 < skelterjohn> sometimes you want a primitive to pass by value
18:07 < Namegduf> I think primitives are faster.
18:07 < skelterjohn> sometimes you want to be a weirdo and use the provided
Double type
18:07 < aiju> yeah, but what the fuck is Double good for
18:07 < skelterjohn> java has implicit conversion between double and Double,
now
18:07 < Namegduf> You can use it as an object
18:07 < skelterjohn> you can't use a double as a key in a map.  you can use
a Double, though
18:07 < aiju> wow
18:08 < Namegduf> It inherits from Object, can be stored like one, passes by
reference...
18:08 < aiju> why the fuck do people like Java
18:08 < skelterjohn> all Object subclasses have a hashcode() function
18:08 < skelterjohn> so Double adds functionality
18:08 < aiju> every single language "feature" is enough to make it a TRULY
disgusting language
18:08 < Namegduf> I think primitives are mostly useful for "Look, Java can
run as fast as C!", and Double is used the rest of the time
18:08 < aiju> hahahahaha
18:08 < aiju> Java running as fast as C
18:08 < aiju> yes, if the C program runs on a PDP-11
18:09 < Namegduf> It is close to true, if you ignore RAM and startup time,
and write it in a very unidiomatic way, I think.
18:09 < aiju> then Java could indeed by as fast as C
18:09 < aiju> almost!
18:09 < aiju> no real Java program i've seen ever was nearly as fast as any
comparative C/C++ program
18:10 < Namegduf> Every Java liking person seems to be a huge, huge OO fan
18:10 < aiju> the Xilinx Verilog Compiler takes 30s (NO OVERSTATEMENT) just
to parse 200 lines into an AST
18:10 < Namegduf> I've not met many people who profess to actually like it,
though.
18:10 < skelterjohn> it is sort of the ultimate realization of OO
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18:12 < Namegduf> http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=464548 <- On zero but
true.
18:12 < Namegduf> "Many functions -like the execute function in DBI- return
0E0 when they want to return a result that is ment to be zero but is 'boolean'
true in tests"
18:14 < skelterjohn> this is one reason i like the fact that go only allows
things of type boolean for conditionals
18:14 -!- nickbp [~nickbp@70-36-134-55.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: brb]
18:14 < ww> re: factories, i agree they are overused, but they do have their
place
18:14 < Namegduf> Yes.
18:15 < Namegduf> ww: Their place is as functions and only where they're
part of the simplest design for doing something.  Normally when they show up it's
a workaround of a design being overcomplex for no good reason.
18:16 < Namegduf> Passing a factory function into something isn't
essentially a bad idea but it is a thing and you don't want to do it often.
18:16 * ww agrees
18:16 < Namegduf> skelterjohn: Oddly, that's one of the few things I *like*
about Java.
18:17 < Namegduf> It has the same rule.
18:17 < ww> now actually i hope something eventually comes from all of this
generics discussion...
18:17 < skelterjohn> i would like some form of generics - just because i
like type safety
18:18 < ww> the lack of is biting me in an annoying way now, several almost
identical but not quite types, having to repeat myself repeat myself to implement
them...
18:18 -!- Project_2501 [~Marvin@82.84.71.132] has joined #go-nuts
18:19 < skelterjohn> well, you can do them with interface{} and then make a
type-safe wrapper
18:20 < exch_> or slap in a preprocessor to do the code generation for you.
*runs and hides*
18:20 < ww> skelterjohn: sure but it should be easier than that
18:20 < skelterjohn> there was an experiment with that a year ago, and it
was neat, but it didn't take off
18:21 < ww> exch_: looked at that actually...
18:21 < skelterjohn> ww: i just use interface{} and type assertions for my
containers
18:22 < aiju> i just don't use containers!
18:22 < Namegduf> I use a preprocessor
18:22 < Namegduf> It's called sed
18:22 < exch_> :P
18:22 < aiju> i craft my linked list by hand every time
18:22 < Namegduf> No, really
18:23 < taruti> Namegduf: haha
18:23 < Namegduf> I was using gofmt but it crapped itself on my code for a
release or two.
18:23 < aiju> Namegduf: "the worst function call convention is call by text
editor"
18:23 < Namegduf> It seems to be okay again, so I should revert to it.
18:23 < aiju> (some forth guy)
18:24 < aiju> really stupid question
18:24 < aiju> someone in here familiar with CP/M?  :D
18:27 < nsf> private static final boolean
18:27 < nsf> lol
18:27 < aiju> nsf: that's nothing compared to C++
18:27 < nsf> :)
18:27 < Namegduf> Static methods are a lesser hack to some.
18:28 < aiju> the standard defines a *please remove children from the room*
18:28 < aiju> rotected abstract virtual base pure virtual private destructor
18:28 < aiju> *protected
18:28 -!- cco3 [~conley@c-69-181-140-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts
18:28 < Namegduf> They're basically a weirdass way to attach functions
inside the encapsulation boundary of the class.
18:28 < Namegduf> final is *weird*
18:28 < aiju> final solution; /* to the Java question */
18:28 < Namegduf> You're never supposed to use it in half of its meaning and
the other half is entirely unrelated.
18:29 < aiju> C also has such keywords
18:29 < Namegduf> And it's not a case where you sometimes need it to
actually solve a problem.
18:29 < aiju> e.g.  static
18:29 < Namegduf> It just blocks subtyping.
18:29 < Namegduf> I once suggested someone use a static variable to catch
and prevent recursion via an indirect mesh of functions in a single-threaded
application.
18:29 -!- niemeyer [~niemeyer@196.212.75.150] has joined #go-nuts
18:30 < Namegduf> They yelled at me.  :(
18:30 < aiju> blah
18:30 < aiju> why would you prevent recursion
18:30 < Namegduf> Basically because of a significant risk of making the
stack explode
18:31 < Namegduf> It was in an error handler.
18:31 < aiju> oh lol
18:31 < Namegduf> An I/O error handler.
18:31 < jokoon> why isn't there const in go ?
18:31 < aiju> well, i'd us e.....  a static variable
18:31 < Namegduf> Which did I/O to notifiy other clients.
18:31 < aiju> jokoon: probably because Plan 9 C doesn't have it either
18:31 < Namegduf> If a whole bunch dropped at once you'd get hilarious
results
18:31 < aiju> and Plan 9 C doesn't have it because ..  nobody knows
18:31 < jokoon> aiju, isn't const from C++ ?
18:32 < aiju> no
18:32 < aiju> C99
18:32 < nsf> const came from C++
18:32 < nsf> to C
18:32 < aiju> Plan 9 C allows you to put const on your variables
18:32 < aiju> but it's ignored
18:32 < aiju> so i suppose it was a conscious decision
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18:32 < Namegduf> Basically it isn't considered worth it.
18:32 < jokoon> const is shit, it doesn't make its way in the executable
18:32 < skelterjohn> const is not the most useful thing ever
18:33 < aiju> i'd somewhat like to see const
18:33 < skelterjohn> of course not - it's entirely a compile-time check
18:33 < nsf> Go has a nice concept of consts
18:33 < aiju> eh you could put const into the executable
18:33 < Namegduf> It's a bit of a pain to manage and the safety gain was not
deemed worth it.
18:33 < aiju> by placing code into the .text or .rodata section
18:33 < Namegduf> C++ const does not work that way
18:33 < aiju> allowing it to be shared between processes
18:33 < skelterjohn> no idea what a .text or .rodata section is
18:33 < Namegduf> Multiple pointers referencing the same thing can be const
or not const and have different things writable
18:34 < aiju> skelterjohn: parts of an executable
18:34 < jokoon> I'm reading some question on stackoverflow about what is a
decompiler, I wonder if in the end the hardest language to decompile might not be
C++
18:34 < Namegduf> Er, and have it writable or not to different bits.
18:34 < aiju> skelterjohn: both are read only once in memory
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18:34 < aiju> skelterjohn: and .text (dunno about .rodata) is shared between
processes
18:34 < aiju> so if you run 100 copies of sh, only one text section is
actually in memory
18:34 < aiju> really old UNIX feature
18:34 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: cw, yebyen, tokuhiro_, mpl,
jbooth1, d_m, foocraft, vpit3833, vinisterx, dropdrive, (+4 more, use /NETSPLIT to
show all of them)
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18:35 < aiju> fucking splitnode
18:35 < jokoon> freenode is GOing NUTS
18:35 < aiju> hahahaha
18:35 < nsf> :)
18:35 < aiju> is it that hard to keep a fucking IRC server running
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18:35 -!- keithcascio [~keithcasc@nat/google/x-rwymkwbkcuhosxgx] has joined
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18:35 < skelterjohn> freenode goes nuts every three hours
18:35 < jokoon> i wonder why though, irc is such an old protocol
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jbooth1, ivan`, vpit3833, jnwhiteh, d_m (+4 more)
18:36 < jokoon> what kind of maintenance are people doing on an irc server ?
18:36 < nsf> uhm..  guys do you know any tool that can help me with grammar
building?
18:36 < nsf> like ANTLR works or something
18:36 < nsf> but smaller
18:36 < aiju> nsf: yacc?
18:36 < aiju> :>
18:36 < jokoon> bison
18:36 < nsf> and not "all in one"
18:36 < aiju> bison is a POS
18:36 < nsf> nonono
18:36 < nsf> I don't need a compiler gen, I use lemon
18:36 < skelterjohn> i once made a python tool that would take a grammar and
parse text into a syntax tree
18:36 < jokoon> i prefer oranges
18:36 < nsf> I need a kind of advanced text editor
18:36 < skelterjohn> i wish i knew where it was
18:36 < nsf> for grammars :)
18:36 < skelterjohn> it was sweet
18:36 < aiju> jokoon = jumzi?
18:36 < jokoon> aiju, no
18:37 < aiju> nsf: i use my normal text editor
18:37 < jokoon> who is jumzi ?
18:37 < Namegduf> IRC is a delicate protocol
18:37 < skelterjohn> jokoon: that's what you would say if you were jumzi
18:37 < Namegduf> And hard to improve on
18:37 < aiju> some guy in here who likes oranges
18:37 < Namegduf> Also Freenode has a bad habit of getting DDoSed, according
to one of its staff.
18:37 -!- cenuij [~cenuij@base/student/cenuij] has quit [Remote host closed the
connection]
18:37 < jokoon> ...  lol
18:37 < jokoon> what's lemon btw ?
18:38 < skelterjohn> that doesn't surprise me
18:38 < skelterjohn> jokoon: something you have to be careful about googling
18:38 < aiju> probably hipster yacc
18:38 < nsf> http://www.hwaci.com/sw/lemon/
18:38 < nsf> i like one thing about it
18:38 < nsf> it doesn't have writeable global state
18:38 < jokoon> is it easier than yacc or bison ?
18:39 < nsf> it means I can use it in threads easily
18:39 < aiju> just like goyacc
18:39 < nsf> yes, it's simpler
18:39 < aiju> or Plan 9 yacc
18:39 < aiju> i couldn't wish yacc to be any simpler
18:39 * jokoon dreams or python-like indented C++
18:39 < aiju> jokoon: YUCK
18:39 < nsf> lemon automatically extracts terminals
18:39 < nsf> and generates defines
18:39 < nsf> also it uses named variables
18:39 < nsf> instead of $1 $2 $3
18:40 < skelterjohn> jokoon: you can indent C++ :)
18:40 -!- belkiss [~kvirc@drn13-1-78-235-168-105.fbx.proxad.net] has joined
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18:40 < jokoon> skelterjohn I meant without the curly braces
18:40 < nsf> but it has some drawbacks too
18:40 < nsf> like you can't insert an action in the middle of a rule
18:40 < jokoon> and the semicolon
18:40 < aiju> python style syntax is great until your program reaches 100
lines
18:40 < skelterjohn> jokoon: go is halfway there, then
18:41 < skelterjohn> also, curly braces are good.
18:41 < jokoon> skelterjohn go doesn't work with a curly brace at the
beginning of the line
18:41 < jokoon> I hate that about go
18:41 < aiju> i hate people who write that kind of code
18:41 < jokoon> the K&R style
18:42 < jokoon> aiju which kind ?
18:42 < skelterjohn> jokoon: yes it does...
18:42 < aiju> if(foo) \n {
18:42 < aiju> i find it terribly ugly
18:42 -!- belkiss [~kvirc@drn13-1-78-235-168-105.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client
Quit]
18:42 < jokoon> I find it more structured
18:42 < aiju> one thing Java programmers got right
18:43 < aiju> the worst is
18:43 < aiju> if(foo)
18:43 < aiju> {
18:43 < jokoon> oddly the K&R style does it on fucntion, not on
conditionnales
18:43 < aiju> foo
18:43 < aiju> }
18:43 < skelterjohn> jokoon: http://pastebin.com/aNUbGmmA
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18:43 < aiju> jokoon: functions are a different story
18:43 < skelterjohn> oh you mean braces after conditions
18:43 < skelterjohn> get over it
18:43 < skelterjohn> :)
18:44 < skelterjohn> the go community got those arguments out of its system
about a year ago
18:44 < jokoon> skelterjohn http://pastebin.com/Gdsw6krK
18:44 < jokoon> I mean it that way
18:44 < aiju> if you think \0 terminated strings are ugly
18:44 < aiju> CP/M has $ terminated strings :D
18:44 < skelterjohn> yeah, don't do that
18:45 < jokoon> skelterjohn that's the only thing I don't like in go
18:45 < skelterjohn> like i said
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18:46 < jokoon> that's why I like the python indenting style
18:46 < jokoon> no more curly braces
18:46 < KBme> ha
18:47 < jokoon> KBme: exactly what I meant
18:47 < KBme> u troll
18:47 < jokoon> groumf huga huga
18:47 < nsf> I think that kind of syntax doesn't work for languages with
types
18:48 < nsf> I've seen boo and geanie
18:48 < nsf> both are ugly
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18:48 < nsf> http://boo.codehaus.org/ http://live.gnome.org/Genie
18:48 < skelterjohn> how do types affect it?
18:49 < nsf> I don't know
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18:49 < nsf> it just looks ugly
18:49 < skelterjohn> ok
18:49 < skelterjohn> correlation/causation, etc
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18:49 < aiju> actually i can imagine it with Go
18:49 < nsf> python is ok though
18:49 < aiju> func foo(a, b int):
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18:49 < aiju> if a > b:
18:49 < aiju> b = 4
18:49 < aiju> blah fucked the indentation up
18:50 < aiju> i just don't consider it practical
18:50 < skelterjohn> aiju: i have no idea what point you're trying to make
18:50 < KBme> nonprinting for syntax is a huge mistake
18:50 < jokoon> btw why should one use spaces instead of tabs ? what use are
tabs then ?
18:50 < aiju> skelterjohn: that i don't get nsf's reasoning
18:50 < aiju> i use tabs
18:50 < nsf> aiju: well your example is simple
18:50 < aiju> is there some Go convention to use spaces i missed?
18:50 < nsf> try something more typeful
18:50 < skelterjohn> jokoon: if you use spaces, it lines up no matter what
text display you use
18:51 < KBme> in python you'll get a pretty bad beating if you use tabs ☺
18:51 < nsf> gofmt uses tabs
18:51 < skelterjohn> i use tabs
18:51 < nsf> thank god
18:51 < aiju> KBme: hahahaha i use tabs even with python
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18:51 < aiju> people told me that i write C in python
18:51 < KBme> aiju: don't paste code to #python or they'll pick you apart ;)
18:51 < nsf> aiju: yeah, all C programmers do that
18:52 < aiju> ofc nobody can explain why i should dig through millions of
libraries instead of just write it using five lines of primitives
18:52 < nsf> hahaha
18:52 < nsf> because there are really nice python libraries :)
18:52 < aiju> "HAHAHAH RETARD JUST USE WEIRDLIBRARY.WEIRFUNCTION"
18:52 < KBme> it's teh oo way
18:52 < nsf> that's why it's so popular
18:52 < aiju> i wrote a package manager in python
18:53 < aiju> i spent so much time arguing with the interpreter
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