--- Log opened Thu Mar 11 00:00:19 2010
--- Day changed Thu Mar 11 2010
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00:35 < plexdev> http://is.gd/aarEl by [Robert Griesemer] in go/doc/ --
install.html: add section on C tools
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01:06 < plexdev> http://is.gd/aaxV0 by [Robert Griesemer] in
go/src/pkg/math/ -- math package: minor documentation fix
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01:28 < drhodes> can the reflect module extract the field names of an
instantiated struct?
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02:28 < hstimer> when you pass foo(a[0:1]), you are passing a slice right?
but when I do a reflect.Typeof(a).String() within foo it reports an array not a
slice
02:29 < Eridius> hstimer: a[0:1] will definitely be a slice, but that
doesn't mean a isn't an array
02:31 < hstimer> the reflect package indicates that Slice is its own type,
which would imply that passing a slice would give you a type of slice, not array
02:31 < Eridius> but you didn't pass a slice.  you passed a
02:31 < Eridius> try reflect.Typeof(a[0:1]).String() instead
02:33 < hstimer> syntax error
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02:34 < hstimer> my mistake.  it parses
02:35 < hstimer> still returns []int
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02:37 < hstimer> apparently slice's are just a figment of everyone's
imagination
02:38 < Eridius> hstimer: []int is a slice type
02:38 < Eridius> [3]int would be an array
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02:39 < hstimer> ah...  so when does reflect.SliceType make an appearance?
02:39 < Eridius> hstimer: I assume that's what reflect.Typeof() is
returning.
02:40 < Eridius> you're calling String() on it, and that's presumably
implemented for SliceType to return the string that denotes the underlying element
type
02:40 < Eridius> e.g.  []int
02:41 < hstimer> you are right
02:41 < hstimer> *reflect.SliceType
02:42 < hstimer> much thanks for the clarification
02:42 < Eridius> np
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02:55 < hstimer> how do you test against a type without 1) using the fancy
switch/type thang, 2) creating an instance of the type so that you can call
Typeof?
02:55 < hstimer> this wont compile:
02:55 < hstimer> isTrue(reflect.Typeof(reflect.SliceType) ==
reflect.Typeof(a)
02:55 < hstimer> reflect.SliceType is not an expression
02:58 < hstimer> I guess go doesn't have class classes
03:01 < KirkMcDonald> t, ok := reflect.Typeof(a).(*reflect.SliceType)
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03:08 < hstimer> well that works; no idea why, but thank you
03:08 < KirkMcDonald> hstimer: It's a type assertion.
03:09 < hstimer> yes, I use them
03:09 < hstimer> oh, never mind
03:09 < KirkMcDonald> reflect.Typeof returns something with the Type
interface.
03:09 < KirkMcDonald> *reflect.SliceType is one of the types which
implements this interface.
03:11 < hstimer> I'm just used to x.(T)...  never occurred to me there was
another way to do that
03:12 < hstimer> very cool....  go has yet again cleverly avoided needing
class classes
03:12 < hstimer> thanks for the tutorial
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03:39 < yebyen> any RIT students in the house?
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04:39 < plexdev> http://is.gd/abcR6 by [Ian Lance Taylor] in go/doc/ --
Revert previous change: complexN only converts to complexN.
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05:04 < jesusaurus> so...  theres a typo in the example hello world source
on the website
05:05 < jesusaurus> http://golang.org/doc/go_tutorial.html : the sample code
line 07: import fmt "fmt"
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05:06 < jesusaurus> that should be: import "fmt"
05:07 < Archwyrm> jesusaurus: Should compile fine as is.  The line renames
the import, but renames it to what it already was, so kind of pointless.
05:07 < jesusaurus> huh, it wouldnt compile for me like that
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05:07 < jesusaurus> im using 8g on linux
05:07 < Archwyrm> And probably not the best example of import for the first
time.
05:08 < Archwyrm> Working just fine here with the same.
05:08 < Archwyrm> Are you using tip or what?
05:08 < jesusaurus> why would you want to rename an import?
05:09 < Archwyrm> To avoid namespace clashes.
05:09 < jesusaurus> i dont know what tip is, i just compiled my first ever
go program
05:10 < Archwyrm> jesusaurus: It's the head revision of the hg repo.
05:10 < Archwyrm> Did you install the release branch?
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05:10 < Archwyrm> Oh, and you can also do this btw: import . "fmt"
05:10 < jesusaurus> no, i didnt
05:10 < Archwyrm> Then you can just write Printf(...)
05:11 < jesusaurus> oh, cool
05:12 < jesusaurus> can you import multiple imports like that?  will they
share namespace?
05:12 < Archwyrm> Well, if it still isn't working for you verbatim, then I'd
try updating, hg pull && hg update
05:12 < jesusaurus> as long as there are no conflicting references?
05:12 < Archwyrm> Or update to release, hg update release
05:12 < jesusaurus> ok, will do
05:12 < Archwyrm> I assume so.
05:12 < Archwyrm> (you have to run all.bash again, of course)
05:14 < Archwyrm> It is probably a better habit to use the namespaces for
anything serious though.  Most are quite short.
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05:19 < kmeyer> Archwyrm: does the 'import . "pkg"' syntax give you access
to the private variables/functions/struct members as well?
05:20 < Archwyrm> kmeyer: I doubt it.
05:23 < kmeyer> I suppose it'd be a hack anyways
05:23 < kmeyer> just curious.  *shrug*
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05:25 < Archwyrm> Possibly there is a way to get at that stuff.  Some
languages let you bend the rules.
05:26 < Archwyrm> But generally private things are so for a good reason.
05:28 < KirkMcDonald> Was that a subtle hint that I should put my pants back
on?
05:29 < Archwyrm> if KirkMcDonald.PantsOff; fmt.Println("Yes")
05:30 < KirkMcDonald> So if I am reading this code correctly, and I think
that I am, people will agree with me as long as I am not wearing pants?
05:30 < kmeyer> well, it doesn't compile here
05:31 < Archwyrm> KirkMcDonald: Well played.  =P
05:31 < kmeyer> I think (s)he meant: if KirkMcDonald.PantsOff {
fmt.Println("Put them back on :)") }
05:31 < kmeyer> ;)
05:32 < Archwyrm> kmeyer: Ah yes..  I can't write code without syntax
highlighting.  At least if it doesn't resemble Python.  ;x
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05:33 < kmeyer> Archwyrm: heh :)
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05:48 < nnark> are there any resources other than golang.org that can expose
me to the language a bit more?
05:49 < Archwyrm> nnark: There's http://go-lang.cat-v.org/
05:52 < nnark> Archwyrm: thanks, it looks like it's going to help.  but i
have some very basic questions after looking at the tutorial examples...  like,
how do you read two arguments from command line(which are file names), open the
file and make it available to the app
05:53 < nnark> there were a few things going on in the tutorial that didn't
explicitly explain the syntax
05:54 < Archwyrm> nnark: IIRC, these subjects are covered in the tutorial.
If something in the tutorial doesn't make sense you can certainly ask in here.
05:54 < rsaarelm> You can get at the command line arguments from os.Args
05:55 < rsaarelm> And for something that actually sets options at command
line instead of just reading two file names, there's heavier machinery at the flag
package.
05:56 < rsaarelm> io/ioutil.ReadFile is a simple way to read an entire file.
05:56 < Archwyrm> Ah, it was the flag package that was in the tutorial.
05:56 < nnark> rsaarelm: yes, that's one of the things i had a question
about: flags.  although Archwyrm's link has a pdf that is qite useful
05:57 < nnark> quite*
05:58 < nnark> is there a built-in function that can take something like a
file or string, parse it, and store each word in an array element?
05:58 < nnark> the latter part is obviously not part of the built-in i'm
asking about.
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06:04 < Archwyrm> nnark: I don't know of anything that specifically does
that, but you could probably use http://golang.org/pkg/bufio/#Reader.ReadString
06:04 < Archwyrm> Just give space as the delimeter rather than newline.
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06:13 < nnark> Archwyrm: thanks for being patient and helpful.  the larger
problem i'm trying to solve is implementing the unix command tr -cs 'A-Za-z'
['\n*'] .
06:14 < nnark> what i really need to do is read a ton of words and eliminate
duplicates and words not containing A-Z a-z
06:15 < Archwyrm> nnark: You'll definitely want to use the regexp package
then.  ;)
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06:18 < nnark> ah, looking at http://golang.org/pkg/regexp/ are the
declarations for concat, closure, term part of using the regexp package?
06:18 < nnark> or are they declared
06:19 < nnark> nm...  i see how it's used
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06:19 < nnark> that's actually a fantastic way of doing it
06:19 < nnark> it reminds me of grammars and bnf
06:19 < Archwyrm> nnark: At the top of the page?  That's just telling you
regex syntax.
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06:19 < Archwyrm> *the regex syntax
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06:22 < nnark> ok, so that has nothing to do with the code i write.  just an
explanation of how to structure the regexp?
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06:23 < Archwyrm> nnark: Yeah
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06:34 < KirkMcDonald> nnark: Notice that this is the entirety of the regex
syntax.  These are very simple regexes.
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06:36 < nnark> KirkMcDonald: right, I think I only need [A-Za-z]+ ?
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06:39 < nnark> ah...  more like ([A-Za-z]+) ?
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07:55 < Bombe> Is it normal that a compiled go program that does almost
nothing is almost 700K in size?  (And grows to 2.3M when it is stripped?  :)
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07:57 < anticw> yes
07:57 < Bombe> Ah, okay.  I assume those kind of optimations are not very
high on anybody's TODO list.
07:57 < Bombe> I'll continue tinkering then.  :)
07:57 < anticw> the runtime isn't shared
07:57 < anticw> so binaries are large
07:58 < anticw> stripped binaries also tend to break
07:59 < Bombe> Right.  Didn't notice that, I was too stunned by the file's
growth after stripping.  :)
08:01 < anticw> compare with gcc -static ; it's not so bad
08:02 < Bombe> True.  :)
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08:50 < Bombe> directory := os.Open(".", os.O_RDONLY, 0); entries :=
directory.Readdir(-1); for _, entry := range entries { fmt.Printf("entry: %s\n",
entry.Name() }
08:51 < Bombe> Why does the compiler complain about entry being a string?
According to the documentation entries should be a []Dir.
08:53 < cbeck> Bombe: What is the error message?
08:53 < Bombe> scan.go:18: cannot call non-function entry.Name (type string)
08:53 < Bombe> That’s the fmt.Printf thingy.
08:54 < cbeck> Bombe: Name is a filed, not a method
08:54 < cbeck> *field
08:54 < Bombe> Oh.
08:54 < Bombe> Okay.
08:55 < Bombe> Confusing.  In os.File it's a method, in os.Dir it's a field.
08:55 < Bombe> Well, thanks.  :)
08:56 < cbeck> Np, I agree, that is confusing
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08:59 < Archwyrm> If there isn't a ticket about that, there probably should
be.
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09:16 < Bombe> Yay!  I broke it: throw: all goroutines are asleep -
deadlock!
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09:21 < cbeck> I love that
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09:26 < kmeyer> Bombe: oh, it actually gives an error message now instead of
dumping stack traces for all of your blocked goroutines?
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09:27 < Bombe> kmeyer, I think it also gave me stack traces, I can't
reproduce it though, I already fixed it.  :)
09:28 < kmeyer> hehe
09:29 < kmeyer> Yeah, stack traces are super useful when tens of thousands
of goroutines are opened simultaneously ;)
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09:29 < Bombe> Yeah, "it's not our problem that you can't handle 6000
threads." :)
09:30 < Bombe> But after this hour of evaluation I have to say that I kind
of like Go.
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09:30 < Bombe> In this regard it fared way better than python and ruby.
09:33 < kmeyer> in comparison with?
09:33 < kmeyer> (I'm assuming you're coming from a strong familiarity with
another language?)
09:33 < kmeyer> (just curious ;))
09:34 < Bombe> After an hour of toying around with it I like Go far more
than I liked python and ruby after their first hour.
09:34 < Bombe> My programming language of choice is still Java, though.
09:36 < kmeyer> Ah, ok
09:37 < kmeyer> I would think the whole returning errors thing would turn
you off
09:37 < kmeyer> :)
09:37 < cbeck> Bleargh
09:37 < cbeck> Coming from java/c++, stack unwinding is the devil
09:37 < Bombe> kmeyer, multiple return arguments take some getting used to,
yes.  :)
09:37 < cbeck> Moreso in c++ of course
09:38 < kmeyer> totally
09:38 < kmeyer> I really disliked the throw/catch model of java
09:38 < kmeyer> and to some extent ruby/python
09:39 < Bombe> I'm still a fan of it because I like to handle errors in the
appropriate place and not where they occur.
09:40 < cbeck> The number of catch (Exception E) {;} blocks I've run across
in my time makes the mind boggle
09:40 < Bombe> That is bad code and should not be taken into consideration.
:)
09:41 < kmeyer> the problem is that the java stdlib's exception hierarchy is
horribly organized
09:41 < kmeyer> well, one problem
09:41 < cbeck> Bombe: Agreed, I just like my flow of control to be a bit
more transparent, so the result, ok := ...  if ok { model makes me happy
09:41 < Bombe> Yes, it is.
09:43 < kmeyer> One could sort of implement tuples in Go using closures and
multiple returns...
09:43 < kmeyer> Kind of a kludge, though
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09:47 < kmeyer> I kind of want to make a Go REPL loop (the existing project
seems broken atm)
09:48 < kmeyer> Unfortunately, I've got finals next week...
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16:27 < skelterjohn> morning
16:28 < skelterjohn> what's the state of go generics these days?  any
progress?
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16:35 < exch> as far as I know it's still limited to some preprocessor
attempts by community members
16:35 < exch> including myself
16:38 < exch> handy for limited cases, but any and all trace of it is gone
once a program/package is compiled
16:38 < skelterjohn> yeah, doesn't seem like the right solution to me
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16:40 < skelterjohn> it's especially frustrating because it seems to be
"sortof" there, in maps and chans
16:40 < exch> interfaces can take a way a lot of the pain, but not all of it
16:41 < skelterjohn> static type checking is what's missing, for me
16:41 < exch> I find it lacking most notably when dealing with lists
(slices) of generic types
16:43 < skelterjohn> i find it hard to get started on a serious go project
without the use of generics
16:43 < skelterjohn> for instance, my field is machine learning
16:44 < skelterjohn> it'd be nice to have some libraries for distributions
etc, but having distributions over "type Box interface{}" isn't satisfying
16:44 < exch> We can only hope they'll consider adding generics at some
point
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16:47 < skelterjohn> it'd also be nice to make gomatrix use templates
16:47 < skelterjohn> which would allow it to use the complex type
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17:46 < plexdev> http://is.gd/aefNy by [Christopher Wedgwood] in
go/src/pkg/syslog/ -- syslog: increase test timeout from 10ms to 100ms
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18:14 < ptolomy2> What is the best way to performance profile Go code?
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18:14 < fenicks> hello
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18:46 < tire0011> why are classes not assisted at go?  What is the problem
with classes
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18:49 < JBeshir> tire0011: Lots of time spent setting up types and
relationships between them and generally the work of modeling the problem in OO
instead of solving it, I think.
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18:49 < JBeshir> Then reworking it when you find you need to have something
inherit only SOME properties...
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18:59 < tire0011> the missing classes has nothing to do with the concurrent?
Maybe is there a problem with classes at the concurrent
19:01 < tristram> people get tired of classes ;) Haskell gains in popularity
with its typeclass, C++ becomes popular with generic programming replacing object
oriented design
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19:57 < nocturnal> what's the point of the first returned value in
net.LookupHost, cname?  i thought it would act like host -t CNAME in the bind dist
but it just shows the original hostname, argument to net.LookupHost
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20:13 < ni|> hey all
20:13 < ni|> anything interesting that needs to be done with go?
20:16 < ptolomy2> Yes.
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20:17 < ni|> i'm interestin gin bugbusting
20:17 < ni|> i'll just play with cgo
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20:18 < skelterjohn> feel like making a gomatrix interface to BLAS or
LINPACK?
20:18 < skelterjohn> which would involve cgo
20:19 < ni|> hmm thats interesting
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20:19 < ni|> what packages are needed
20:19 < ni|> are there any numerical methods stuff
20:19 < skelterjohn> gomatrix is a standalone
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20:19 < ni|> like null space and laplacian transforms
20:19 < skelterjohn> gomatrix.googlecode.org
20:19 < skelterjohn> i just have basic things in there
20:20 < skelterjohn> LU, SVD, eigenstuff
20:20 < skelterjohn> and it's all implemented in go
20:20 < skelterjohn> but it would be neat to interface it to some of the
speedy stuff
20:21 < skelterjohn> it'd just need to implement the Matrix interface in
http://code.google.com/p/gomatrix/source/browse/matrix.go, and then it would be
compatible with the rest of the library
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20:43 < hstimer> does go do any kind of inlining yet?
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20:53 < anticw> no
20:54 < anticw> gccgo probably does
20:54 < anticw> but no gc
20:54 < anticw> s/no/not/
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22:07 < hstimer> anticw: bummer
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22:08 < anticw> hstimer: does it really matter though?
22:09 < hstimer> in a few inner loops, yes, but not in general
22:10 < anticw> there are other optimizations that would make more of a
difference i think
22:10 < anticw> like eliminating some bounds checking
22:11 < hstimer> I'm sure there is a very long list
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22:37 < eliteSchaf> hey guys.  whats the best way to convert []int ->
string?
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22:38 < KirkMcDonald> Expecting what result?
22:39 < KirkMcDonald> A string like "[1, 2, 3]"?  Or is it an array of
runes?
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22:40 < eliteSchaf> it is an array of rune's
22:41 < eliteSchaf> fmt.Sprint doesnt work
22:41 < eliteSchaf> like described in effective go
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22:42 < KirkMcDonald> I am not seeing which part of Effective Go you are
referring to.
22:43 < KirkMcDonald> But, string(foo) should work.
22:45 < eliteSchaf> I'm referring to the chapter "Conversions"
22:46 < eliteSchaf> KirkMcDonald, oh thanks, string() works ^^
22:51 < anticw> eliteSchaf: string([]int{....}) or similar is fine
22:51 < anticw> there were recent changes to that stuff is usable
22:51 < anticw> same for bytes
22:52 < eliteSchaf> anticw, alright
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23:07 < meatmanek> is there a data structure that will store a string in
some way that lets me append or take substrings quickly?
23:07 < meatmanek> maybe an automatically expanding byte slice or something
23:09 < anticw> meatmanek: not exactly
23:09 < anticw> meatmanek: substrings you can do in the language ...  you
can't change (append) strings though
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23:10 < meatmanek> rightt
23:10 < meatmanek> I guess I'll just take the code from effective go
23:10 < anticw> strings are values immmutable, so you have to make a new
string
23:10 < KirkMcDonald> Which quickly gives you quadratic performance.
23:10 < meatmanek> yep
23:10 < anticw> it depends what you're doing
23:10 < meatmanek> byte slices are fine actually
23:10 < anticw> bytes work well a lot of the time and you convert to strings
only when you need that
23:10 < taruti> meatmanek: http://golang.org/pkg/bytes/ Buffer
23:11 < KirkMcDonald> The idiom in Python (at least) is to use the
equivalent of a []string, then join the thing together when you're done.
23:11 < KirkMcDonald> But you can't exactly get substrings from that easily,
before joining it.
23:11 < meatmanek> I think buffer is what I'm looking for
23:11 < anticw> substrings are near from from existing strings
23:11 < KirkMcDonald> Ah, I knew I remembered that Buffer type, but I
couldn't find it.
23:11 < anticw> i think when most people ask for this they really want bytes
23:12 < taruti> probably should be made into a FAQ-entry
23:13 < taruti> "how do I concatenate strings efficiently" is a common
problem.
23:13 < Eridius> is there a common answer?
23:13 < Eridius> :p
23:13 < anticw> let the runtime do it
23:13 < Eridius> oh I guess Buffer is it
23:13 < anticw> s := "foo" + "bar"
23:13 < meatmanek> the most common answer is probably buffer
23:13 < Eridius> but the original question wanted substrings too
23:14 < meatmanek> anticw, but if you're doing that programmatically, that
gets expensive quickly
23:15 < anticw> does it?
23:15 < Eridius> anticw: each time you append it creates a new string
23:15 < anticw> i mean, in those cases are you sure you really want to be
using strings?
23:15 < anticw> sure, and that's fine
23:15 < Eridius> Buffer will keep around extra space to grow into
23:15 < anticw> yes, so use a buffer if that matters
23:15 < taruti> Eridius: of course bytes.Buffer offers fast byte-based
substrings.
23:15 < anticw> i think the issue is WHEN is it appropriate to use strings
23:15 < anticw> strings != bytes
23:15 < anticw> at some level
23:16 < anticw> underneath they are the same but you tend to use them
differently
23:16 < meatmanek> I've actually found that bytes are easier to deal with
when you're making your own data structure
23:16 < anticw> this is true for many other languages as well
23:16 < meatmanek> since one byte is always one byte
23:16 < Eridius> taruti: sure, if you want byte-based
23:16 < meatmanek> whereas one character is not always one char
23:16 < meatmanek> er one byte
23:16 < anticw> if you write a mime parser (as i did) or a text editor, it's
quite possible you'll spend most of the time using bytes
23:17 < taruti> Eridius: character-based indexing is slow even on strings.
23:17 < Eridius> well sure, because you have to convert to runes
23:17 < meatmanek> I'm writing a trie text index
23:18 < taruti> meatmanek: you probably want bytes
23:19 < meatmanek> ep.
23:19 < meatmanek> +y
23:19 < eliteSchaf> shouldn't a text-editor use []int to store the text?
23:21 < taruti> a text editor will want a tree of bytes/[]int
23:21 < eliteSchaf> iirc Russ mentioned it on the mailing list
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23:21 < taruti> eliteSchaf: think of a 50mb file where you add one character
in the middle
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23:22 < taruti> eliteSchaf: do you want to allocate a new ~50mb array as the
user writes 'f' 'o' 'o' 'b' 'a' 'r' ?
23:23 < taruti> (yes, russ said something along those lines on the ml)
23:24 < taruti> -> sleep
23:24 < eliteSchaf> g'n8
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23:35 < kmeyer> eliteSchaf: text editors often use "gap buffers" --
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gap_buffer
23:35 < kmeyer> er, maybe that's the wrong person ;)
23:37 < eliteSchaf> kmeyer, thanks :D
23:37 < anticw> search and replace sucks there though when you change the
size of the buffer
23:37 < anticw> you can see this on a lot of editors, they get quite slow
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--- Log closed Fri Mar 12 00:00:24 2010