--- Log opened Thu Apr 22 00:00:21 2010
--- Day changed Thu Apr 22 2010
00:00 < uriel> I'm not a native speaker, and my English sucks, and I still
cringe every time I try to parse one of his sentences..
00:00 < uriel> I was starting to wonder if he uses google-translate or
something like that to write his emails
00:00 < uriel> but then I realized that google translate probably would
produce more coherent output
00:00 < ptrb> uriel.... sprechen sie deutsch?
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00:01 < uriel> ptrb: nej ;P
00:01 < ptrb> ahar
00:01 < ptrb> i live in south africa at the moment, afrikaans is quite
similar to yours
00:02 < ptrb> wait, no, nej is swedish
00:03 < sladegen> isn't uriel chroat?
00:03 < ptrb> ignorance! ignorance on display, step right up folks, this
week only
00:05 < uriel> hahaha
00:05 < nf> uriel: i thought you were norwegian or of some other
scandinavian nationality
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00:05 < uriel> nf: I'm from Spain, but I live in Sweden
00:05 < uriel> oh, nf!
00:05 < nf> right, that makes sense
00:05 < uriel> nf: got your private msg, go ahead with the wiki
00:05 < uriel> I was planning to work on it myself, but I'm
lazy/been-distracted-by-other-shit
00:06 < nf> okay cool
00:06 < uriel> I'm still thinking of setting up an app engine site to manage
the list of libs
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00:06 < uriel> it is getting rather unweildy to manage by hand, and probably
something like tags/categories/etc would make it more useful
00:06 < sladegen> there goes my imaginary slavic solidarity... :-o
00:07 < uriel> sladegen: heh
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00:07 < uriel> I love the Balkans if it is consolation ;P
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00:10 * sladegen is a bit up north from the Balkans, though.
00:14 < nsheretic> running Go on ubuntu need help getting goroutine to run
00:16 < nsheretic> using code from golang.org I define 2 funcs send and
recieve, but when I call them with "go send(channel1);" and "go recieve(channel1)"
nothing happens
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00:21 < plexdev> http://is.gd/bCN7j by [Evan Shaw] in go/src/pkg/big/ --
big: Add some tests
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00:25 < uriel> nf: btw, were in .au are you located?
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00:27 < uriel> and do you know Bruce Ellis?
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01:00 < nsheretic> getting a throw: all goroutines are asleep when trying to
run a send and recieve func on a channel, any help much appreciated
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01:14 < nf> uriel: sydney. no.
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01:19 < Archwyrm> nsheretic: pastebin your code?
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02:11 < uriel> nf: oh, Brucee is an ex-Bell Labs guy and co-conspirator with
Rob in a few infamous incidents like Mark V Shaney
02:11 < uriel> really smart and cool guy
02:11 < uriel> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Ellis
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02:16 < nf> cool. yeah, i'm a google guy, not a bell labs guy :)
02:17 < uriel> heh, I know, anyway, if you have a chance maybe when rob
drops by or whatever, I really recommend to hang out with brucee, he is a truly
awesome guy
02:18 < uriel> I'm surprised he has not got into Go, he is probably the best
Limbo hacker out there
02:19 < uriel> he maintains his own version of Inferno (OzInferno :)) that
he has ported to the PS2 and a bunch of other crazy platforms
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02:19 < uriel> actually, he did the 64bit port of the plan9 compilers, not
sure if that is what ken used as basis for the compilers in the Go distribution
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02:41 < nsheretic> running Go on ubuntu can anyone tell me why my goroutines
won't run until another line of code runs?
02:42 < nsheretic> I have go myPackage.IsReady("tea",1); just like the
tutorial but it doesn't execute unless I put another line of code underneath like
fmt.Println("needs another line of code for some reason")
02:43 < nsheretic> very confused
02:45 < jessta> nsheretic: pastebin your code
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02:48 < jessta> goroutines are cooperative, so the current one needs to
yield(do some kind of I/O or call Gosched()) for the others to run
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02:58 < nsheretic> i thought goroutines were concurrent? why should one
have to yield to another?
02:58 < nf> nsheretic:
http://golang.org/doc/go_programming_faq.html#Why_no_multi_CPU
02:59 < nsheretic> ah so goroutines won't multiplex themselves inside an os
thread
02:59 < nf> they will
03:00 < nf> if you actually show your code, it can be explained better
03:01 < nsheretic> http://pastebin.com/e6whx0F6
03:02 < nf> your main() is exiting before the goroutines can execute
03:02 < nf> they're not guaranteed to do anything in that case, even with
the 'needs more code' println
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03:02 < nf> when main() returns, the program stops; any running goroutines
are aborted
03:02 < nsheretic> ah, so i need to make main stick around long enough
03:03 < nf> the proper way to do it is, redefine isReady
03:03 < nsheretic> in what way?
03:03 < nf> func IsReady(what string, done chan bool) {
03:03 < nf> then at the end of IsReady
03:03 < nf> done <- true
03:03 < nf> in fact, i'll modify your example so you can see what i mean
03:03 < nsheretic> cool thanks
03:05 < nf> http://pastebin.com/VuduJ7f6
03:05 < nf> so at the bottom of main() now, it will block until it's done
two receives from 'done'
03:05 < nsheretic> i see
03:05 < nf> oh, i forgot to pass 'done' to each of the IsReady calls
03:06 < nf> in practice, you're never going to want to launch goroutines
without some sort of channel attached to them
03:06 < nsheretic> gotcha
03:06 < nf> so the runtime behaves kinda unintuitively if you don't
03:06 < nsheretic> well i did try to run some goroutines with channels in
them, but i got a throw: all goroutines are sleeping
03:06 < nf> i'd have to see the code to comment on that
03:06 < nsheretic> probably because of the same reason
03:07 < nf> probably, no receivers for a send
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03:07 < nsheretic> right
03:07 < nsheretic> it was the pump / suck code straight from the online
tutorial
03:07 < nsheretic> there weren't any done chan bool's in there, so i didn't
figure i needed anything else
03:07 < nf> which tutorial?
03:08 < nsheretic> in the powerpoint pdfs for the 3 day course
03:08 < nsheretic> lemme see if i can find it again...
03:09 < nsheretic> http://golang.org/doc/GoCourseDay3.pdf
03:09 < nsheretic> slide 16
03:09 < nf> yep i see it
03:09 < nf> i don't see anything specific wrong with it
03:09 < nsheretic> so it doesn't need a done chan bool or anything to block?
03:10 < nf> unless you create a buffered channel (by providing an int
parameter to make()), a send or receive will block until the other side is ready
03:11 < nsheretic> ok
03:11 < nf> which is why the pump function in that slide doesn't chew up
100% cpu. every time it sends a new number to 'ch', it waits until a receiver is
ready
03:11 < nsheretic> ah
03:11 < nsheretic> i tried putting those exact functions into the main
package and running them
03:11 < nf> let me try
03:11 < nsheretic> ok
03:12 < nf> adg ~/test$ ./6.out
03:12 < nf> 0
03:13 < nf> part 1 works fine: http://pastie.org/929122
03:14 < nsheretic> here's mine: http://pastebin.com/26SgBmzE
03:14 < nf> again, the problem there is that main() will exit
03:14 < nf> and then everything stops
03:14 < nsheretic> thought that might be it
03:15 < nsheretic> how do you resolve that without handing the pump or suck
func a channel with a bool?
03:15 < nsheretic> i got a 503 error on your pastie url
03:15 < nf> well instead of launching suck in a goroutine, you can just run
call suck(ch1)
03:16 < nsheretic> i've tried that too, will try again
03:16 < nf> as there are only two things you want to happen simultaneously
(pump and suck), it makes no sense for there to be 3 goroutines (pump, suck, and
main)
03:16 < nsheretic> ah
03:16 < nsheretic> so i only have to call go on one of them
03:16 < nf> yep
03:16 < nf> unless there's something _else_ you want to do while they're
going at it ;)
03:17 < nf> eg: http://pastebin.com/7d8P8ZfZ
03:17 < nsheretic> yes i found that example humorous as well
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03:18 < nsheretic> does it make a difference that you have those func's set
up before main?
03:18 < nf> as an experiment, try putting a time.sleep inside the for loop
in suck
03:18 < nsheretic> ok
03:19 < nf> you mean instead of defining them inside main?
03:19 < nsheretic> no i put them beneath main
03:19 < nsheretic> like you would in a java class
03:19 < nf> no it doesn't matter
03:19 < nsheretic> didn't think so
03:19 < nf> that's just my style
03:19 < nsheretic> Go is really quite OO for how procedural it looks at
first
03:19 < nf> it is object-oriented
03:19 < nf> it's just not class/inheritance-oriented
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03:20 < nsheretic> which is quite handy
03:21 < nf> i quite like it.
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03:21 < nf> the more i write with it, the more i appreciate Go's design
03:21 < nsheretic> i'm doing a term project on it, which is why i'm such a
newb yet have so many questions
03:21 < nsheretic> and i'm running it on ubuntu via virtual pc
03:22 < nsheretic> on a mac that runs windows :D
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03:24 < nsheretic> so the sleep at the end of main() is what really let's
those routines get started?
03:28 < nf> well it prevents them from being terminated before the program
exits
03:28 < nsheretic> right, and after that second is up, the pum/suck stops
03:28 < nsheretic> that makes sense
03:28 < nf> exactly
03:28 < nsheretic> (would have been nice if that was in the course pdf lol)
03:28 < nf> nsheretic: see this
http://golang.org/doc/go_spec.html#Program_execution
03:29 < nf> the course is really designed to be followed by observation, i
think
03:29 < nsheretic> right
03:29 < nf> it's hard to communicate everything you want to with fully
working code snippets
03:29 < nf> sometimes you have to gloss over things to make your point
03:30 < nsheretic> well good thing there's experts on this channel
03:30 < nf> that said, we can definitely improve our tutorial materials
(something I'm doing personally)
03:30 < nsheretic> ah so are you one of the developers of Go?
03:30 < nf> yes
03:31 < nsheretic> wow. It's an honor.
03:31 < nf> i'm adg@golang.org
03:31 < nf> haha
03:31 < nf> i'm just some guy ;)
03:31 < nf> don't feel honoured hehe
03:32 < nsheretic> lol probably because people like me are butchering your
language trying to learn it cuz we're not so good at it
03:32 < nf> it's to be expected. it is a different way of doing things. if
people don't "get it", then that's something we need to work hard to fix
03:33 < nsheretic> for what it's worth, I've really liked what i've seen so
far
03:34 < nf> great! :)
03:34 < nsheretic> figuring out packaging stuff is still a bit over my head
i think
03:34 < nf> creating a package, you mean?
03:34 < nsheretic> well creating a package isn't so tough, but making it a
part of the source tree is
03:35 < nsheretic> or making changes to a package reflected in compiling
03:35 < nf> seen this? http://golang.org/doc/code.html#New_package
03:35 < nsheretic> lol yup i've read that so many times
03:35 < nf> if you create a makefile for your package, you can just 'make
install', and then when you rebuild something that imports that package, it'll
bring in the changes
03:35 < nf> (and if the exported interface of the package hasn't changed,
you can just re-link, instead of re-compiling)
03:36 < nsheretic> re link the package itself?
03:36 < nsheretic> or the one that imports it?
03:36 < nf> when you link, you link to create a binary, so both
03:36 < nf> eg, you have the package 'nuts'
03:36 < nf> in there, there's a makefile, and you can 'make install'
03:36 < nf> now in your program, you can 'import "nuts"'
03:37 < nf> and then, compiling the program, you just:
03:37 < nf> 6g program.go
03:37 < nf> 6l program.6
03:37 < nf> ./6.out
03:37 < nsheretic> ah
03:37 < nsheretic> ok
03:37 < nsheretic> what dir should i be in when i do make install for
"nuts"?
03:37 < nf> if you change nuts somewhere internally, you just need to "make
install" again
03:37 < nf> you should be in the nuts package directory
03:37 < nsheretic> ok
03:38 < nf> and the Makefile should be in there (the one talked about at the
above link)
03:38 < nsheretic> cuz i'm in a package myPackage, and when i do "make
install" it says "make: Nothing to be done for 'install' "
03:38 < nsheretic> and there is a make file in there
03:38 < nf> show me the contents of the Makefile in myPackage
03:38 < nsheretic> sure
03:39 < nsheretic> http://pastebin.com/NeMT62Gu
03:39 < nsheretic> i have to do that because you can't copy/paste from
virtual pc, which is really annoying
03:40 < nf> where's myPackage ?
03:40 < nf> $GOROOT/src/pkg/myPackage ?
03:40 < nsheretic> in $GOROOT/src/pkg/myPackage
03:40 < nsheretic> yup
03:40 < nf> that's ... weird
03:40 < nsheretic> ? should it be somewhere else?
03:41 < nf> well it could already be installed?
03:41 < nsheretic> i put it there myself, so it's probably my own blunder
03:41 < nf> yeah
03:41 < nsheretic> what exactly does install do?
03:41 < nf> if it's already installed, it'll say 'nothing to do'
03:41 < nsheretic> gotcha
03:42 < nf> it will build (if not already), and then copy the object file to
$GOROOT/pkg/$GOOS_$GOARCH
03:42 < nsheretic> so if it's already installed does it skip the build part?
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03:44 < nsheretic> oh and a question i had from before - you can only "8l"
things from package main right? or should i be able to link additions from the
library?
03:44 < nf> no, it'll rebuild if the source has changed
03:44 < nf> the linker should find imports automatically
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03:45 < nf> or, you can specify the -L flag to tell it to look in a specific
directory
03:45 < nf> but yes, you just link the package main object files together
03:45 < nsheretic> makes sense
03:45 < nsheretic> and yes i see that if i change the source file make
install has something to do
03:46 < nsheretic> amazing how things just start working when you're talking
to someone who know's what they're doing
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03:46 < nf> or when you start to know what _you're_ doing :)
03:47 < nsheretic> what is the difference between make clean and make all?
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03:52 < nf> not sure.
03:52 < nsheretic> is there any kind of "IDE" out there for go? right now
i'm just using gedit which is very painful
03:52 < nf> what do you usually use?
03:53 < nsheretic> not sure what you were asking there - I use make clean
and then make all, or if you were asking about the IDE I've been using gedit the
whole time cuz i don't know of anything else for linux that would be more than a
text editor for go code
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03:54 < nf> what i mean is, what IDE do you usually use?
03:54 < nsheretic> ah
03:54 < sladegen> http://go-lang.cat-v.org/text-editors/
03:54 < nsheretic> well for my other programming i use NetBeans, Eclipse,
Notepad++
03:55 < sladegen> there are text-editors' support files in the golang source
tree, too.
03:55 < nsheretic> oh cool
03:56 < sladegen> misc dir
03:56 < nsheretic> thanks
03:57 < nsheretic> just something with line numbers is better than what i'm
using now lol
03:57 < jessta> gedit has line numbers
03:57 < nsheretic> ah then i would have to turn them on
03:58 < sladegen> cat file.go | nl | less
03:59 < jessta> you should try using acme, it doesn't have line numbers or
syntax highlighting
03:59 < jessta> it's awesome
03:59 < nsheretic> sounds fun
03:59 < nsheretic> does go have an interactive console?
03:59 < jessta> not yet
04:00 < jessta> umm...there are a few
04:01 < jessta> nsheretic: http://github.com/vito/go-repl
04:01 < nsheretic> sweet
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04:15 < kmeyer> jessta: does that work now?
04:15 < kmeyer> last time I tried it it was broken
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04:18 < jessta> I've no idea
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09:49 < taruti> Is there a method in the library for replacing a file with a
new one? (write into temporary, fsync, rename)
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10:04 < taruti> Something like ioutil.WriteFile but safe even if the system
happens to crash between truncating and writing the new contents.
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11:47 < b0gg1e> i can haz plain pthreads in go if i want to?
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11:51 < Surma> b0gg1e: a) why would you want that and b) I can't say for
sure, but you might be able to use c-bindings (cgo)
11:51 < b0gg1e> thinking about writing a zeromq binding for golang, zmq
sockets are thread-bound.
11:52 < b0gg1e> So far I only found LockThread() which looks like barely
enough but i wonder if one can do more.
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11:56 < b0gg1e> That would allow to bridge between go channels and zeromq
sockets. But this would still entail busy looping on two select calls (one fore
zeromq the other for go's channels) with a timeout of zero.
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11:59 < JBeshir> Why with a timeout of zero?
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12:00 < b0gg1e> Because you dont know which of the two selects is ready. Ok
can be some other, small value, but still not nice.
12:01 < b0gg1e> Maybe what Im asking is if i can write my own implementation
of a channel and bind the use of that to a single thread.
12:01 < taruti> Is the godoc syntax defined somewhere? (I'd like to have a
list ordered or bulleted of items in the documentation)
12:02 < b0gg1e> - or a way to wakeup a blocking thread.
12:04 < taruti> b0gg1e: zeromq doesn't have an API that isn't closely tied
to pthreads?
12:06 < b0gg1e> It has its own API with the sole condition that a socket
(what you get after connect or bind) be used from the pthread that obtained it.
12:06 < rsaarelm> taruti: Godoc seems to show indented parts of the doc
comment as unformatted fixed-width text, here's an example of a comment with a
list: http://golang.org/pkg/rpc/
12:06 < b0gg1e> Now that raises the question of to map that onto goroutines
which get scheduled to arbitrary threads without having to reobtain a socket again
and again.
12:07 < taruti> rsaarelm: hmm, that is enough
12:07 < taruti> b0gg1e: hmm, the Haskell API doesn't seem to honor that...
12:08 < b0gg1e> ouch ;-)
12:08 < taruti> (just tried to look for an example how other bindings handle
it)
12:10 < b0gg1e> A ØMQ context is thread safe and may be shared among as many
application threads as the application has requested using the app_threads
parameter to zmq_init(), without any additional locking required on the part of
the caller. Each ØMQ socket belonging to a particular context may only be used by
the thread that created it using zmq_socket(). (from man zmq)
12:11 < b0gg1e> That being the case, what are my options?
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12:14 < taruti> I would probably just spawn a thread in C and use a pipe to
queue messages to that.
12:15 < b0gg1e> Best I came up with (beyond modifying the go runtime) was to
use goroutines with LockThread. But than I have to alternativley check for go
messages and zmq messages. Though zmq can poll other fd's in its zmq_poll call,
maybe that can be exploited.
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12:19 < b0gg1e> Alternatively have multiple layers: first goroutine, solely
deals zmq. second goroutine listens for incoming messages and send on using zmq
inproc, third goroutine listens for incoming zmq messages and sends on using
golang channels + some wrapper that hides all this complexity.
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12:22 < b0gg1e> That should work but sounds like way to many threads to me.
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12:22 < b0gg1e> zmq is about reducing latency not about adding thread switch
delays, after all.
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12:28 < b0gg1e> @taruti thanks for helping maybe i actually will do it this
way, at least this is safe and portable
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12:58 < taruti> Has anyone written a realpath replacement in Go?
12:58 < andreer> How should I import pacakages that are not in the go
distribution file tree? In this case I wish to separate some functionality of my
program into a package and keep it in a subdir of the program main package.
12:59 < taruti> Not using the libc is painful :(
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13:58 < b0gg1e> What is the current build tool of choice for go?
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14:05 < rsaarelm> b0gg1e: Makefiles that include the helper files that come
with the distribution seems to be the standard way.
14:05 < b0gg1e> k thanks
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14:58 < plexdev> http://is.gd/bDCup by [Evan Shaw] in
go/src/pkg/container/vector/ -- vector: Don't always regenerate
{int,string}vector.go
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17:18 < kimelto> morning!
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17:31 < plexdev> http://is.gd/bDMOw by [Evan Shaw] in go/doc/ -- spec: Fix
run-time panic header id
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18:51 < bfrank> Hi, why would a program panic when trying to use goroutines?
18:51 < bfrank> with a message like this
18:51 < bfrank> panic: runtime error: invalid memory address or nil pointer
dereference panic PC=0x9fcddc
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19:05 < jessta> bfrank: because you're trying to access a nil pointer
19:05 < bfrank> what does that mean?
19:05 < bfrank> all I did was put go before a function call
19:05 < bfrank> using an example from the tutorial
19:06 < jessta> pastebin your code
19:07 < bfrank> http://pastebin.com/Hsqtg1tS
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19:10 < jessta> bfrank: in your code the func main() is going to finish
before goroutines have a chance to get through that sleep()
19:11 < jessta> when the func main() finishes it kills all the running
goroutines along with it
19:11 < bfrank> hmm, so I need a sleep in the main also?
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19:12 < jessta> that would work
19:13 < bfrank> I added time.Sleep(20*60*1e9) at the end of main
19:13 < bfrank> but still get the panic
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19:15 < jesusaurus> jessta: wouldnt it be better to use a channel to notify
main when the goroutines are done?
19:15 < jessta> yes it would
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19:18 < jessta> bfrank: it works fine here
19:19 < bfrank> hmm, something must be broke
19:19 < bfrank> :(
19:19 < jessta> are you recompling it when you make changes?
19:19 < bfrank> yes
19:19 < bfrank> 8g and 8l
19:19 < bfrank> when I remove the go from the calls, it works fine
19:20 < bfrank> so something weird with goroutines
19:21 < jessta> using the latest release?
19:21 < bfrank> I could try pulling down the latest
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21:04 < plexdev> http://is.gd/bE0zD by [Rob Pike] in 3 subdirs of
go/src/pkg/ -- FileInfo: regularize the types of some fields.
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22:59 < jesusaurus> is the <- operator implicitly a goroutine?
23:00 < kmeyer> No.
23:01 < jesusaurus> hmm, im getting an error saying all goroutines are
asleep - deadlock
23:01 < jesusaurus> and all i did was add an write to a channel
23:01 < jesusaurus> im not using any goroutines yet
23:03 < Eridius> jesusaurus: if the channel isn't buffered, then there needs
to be a goroutine somewhere that reads from the channel
23:04 < jesusaurus> how do i buffer the channel?
23:04 < Eridius> it's part of the arguments to make() a chan. Go read the
language spec
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23:07 < jesusaurus> ahh, thank you Eridius
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23:18 < newsham> could someone point me towards instructions for getting or
building golang on win32?
23:19 < sladegen> there was recent thread about it on mailing list...
23:23 < newsham> ty, found it
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23:24 < newsham> hmm no "net" yet
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23:45 < uriel> jesusaurus: making the channel buffered would still be quite
pointless if it is not being used by another goroutine on the other end
23:45 < uriel> so using a buffered channel is most likely *not* what you
want to do
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23:48 < jesusaurus> actually it is, because i wanted to work on my
read_input function worked before starting on my parse_input function
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23:48 < jesusaurus> s/worked//
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23:50 < uriel> jesusaurus: in that case it is still probably better for
testing to just have a dummy 'parse_input' function that just has a look reading
from the channel
23:52 -!- jeek [~jeek@pedobear.jeek.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
23:53 < jesusaurus> true
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--- Log closed Fri Apr 23 00:00:50 2010