--- Log opened Sat Feb 19 00:00:27 2011
--- Day changed Sat Feb 19 2011
00:00 < kimelto> depends of your definition of "mostly" I guess ;)
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00:16 < zzing> Is there any concurrency beyond goroutines?  Like a real
threading.
00:16 < Namegduf> Goroutines are fully concurrent.
00:16 < Namegduf> They're distributed over multiple threads and thus are as
concurrent as threads are.
00:16 < zzing> oh, my apologies, I must have read something wrong
00:17 < |Craig|> They can be, you have to set the runtime to use multiple
cores though
00:17 < zzing> |Craig|: how is that done?
00:17 < KirkMcDonald> GOMAXPROCS
00:17 < Namegduf> |Craig|: Sort of.  They always are for blocking
goroutines.
00:17 < Namegduf> As they don't count towards GOMAXPROCS
00:18 < KirkMcDonald> zzing: Specifically, set GOMAXPROCS to some value when
launching your Go binary.
00:18 < KirkMcDonald> zzing: That will be the number of threads which the
goroutines will be multiplexed across.
00:18 < zzing> KirkMcDonald: Is there any way for the program to do it?  It
is not always possible to set the environment before execution.
00:18 < KirkMcDonald> *the environment variable GOMAXPROCS
00:18 < KirkMcDonald> zzing: It isn't?
00:19 < Namegduf> zzing: Stick it in your environment somewhere else.
00:19 < zzing> KirkMcDonald: For example if I am running inside an app
bundle on the mac
00:19 < Namegduf> The appropriate maximum number of goroutines to use is a
factor of the system, not the program
00:19 < Namegduf> Er, maximum number of threads to use concurrently
00:19 < Namegduf> You can, however, set it using a runtime.something call
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00:25 <@nf_> n___: we have more and more community contributions.  for
example, the windows port is driven entirely by non-google contributors
00:25 <@nf_> if you look at the release notes there are more and more
entries with (thanks Foo Bar) beside them
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00:53 < gr0gmint> is there a reason why my app seems more stable with
GOMAXPROCS>1 set ?
00:53 <@nf_> yes, because there are issue with concurrent GC right now
00:54 < gr0gmint> so its unstable when using a single thread or what?
00:57 <@nf_> oh sorry i misread that
00:57 <@nf_> that is strange :S
00:58 <@nf_> if you can whittle it down to a minimal test-case that'd be
great
00:59 < gr0gmint> i can try
00:59 < gr0gmint> if GOMAXPROCS is not set, what is the default value?
01:02 < |Craig|> gr0gmint: 1 I think, but I;m not sure
01:02 < uriel> nf_: well, the roadmap still mentions: "Improved CGO
including some mechanism for calling back from C to Go.
01:02 < uriel> "
01:02 < uriel> which AFAIK is done
01:03 < gr0gmint> |Craig|: okay
01:03 < uriel> (I think there were a couple of other done items, but they
seems to be gone now)
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02:01 < niemeyer> uriel: The calling back from C to Go is still not a great
story
02:05 < uriel> niemeyer: but AFAIK it works
02:06 < niemeyer> uriel: It depends on what you mean by that..  calling from
C to Go "out of band" requires considerable effort still
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09:10 < taruti> Has anyone got a simple way of generating apidocs from
Go-packages into bitbucket?
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09:19 < napsy_> import "os/signal" ...  var sig chan signal.Signal; sig
<- signal.Incoming; ...  and I get error "cannot use <-signal.Incoming (type
signal.Signal) as type chan signal.Signal in assignment: need type assertion" why?
09:20 < napsy_> oh nvm
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12:13 < sauerbraten> can someone tell me why this: http://pastie.org/1582030
prints out "0", then a deadlock exception, and then continues with "1", "2", ...
until "99"?
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12:17 < sauerbraten> oh erm: sometimes it also produces the deadlock
exception after "99" o.O
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12:38 < Luya_> hello,any ide available?\
12:39 < Luya_> hello,does anybody use goclipse?
12:40 < hokapoka> Luya_: personally I don't use goeclipse, although others
have talked about it in here and have been relativly positive.
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12:42 < hokapoka> sauerbraten: becuase the routines have ended, except the
for { x := <-c2; }
12:43 < hokapoka> throw: all goroutines are asleep - deadlock!
12:44 < hokapoka> sorry x = <-ch2;
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12:45 < sauerbraten> hokapoka, you mean ch2 <- x?
12:45 < sauerbraten> or x <- ch1?
12:46 < sauerbraten> ah right, x <- ch1 awaits something but since
nothing sends anything to ch1 it deadlocks?
12:46 < hokapoka> x = <- ch1
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12:48 < sauerbraten> ok, the reason why the exception sometimes showed up
between 0 and 1 or even before 0 is, that eclipse mixes up stdout and stderr
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12:56 < alexluya> does anybody use goclipse?
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13:02 < jumzi> i didn't think it was that mature yet
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15:07 < KBme> hm latest release fails at tests
15:07 < KBme> printer.TestFiles fails
15:07 < KBme> on one of my machines (amd64)
15:07 < KBme> weird, doesn't seem to happen on the other one (x86)
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15:10 < KBme> tip built fine probably a known bug
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15:13 < KBme> ok the problem is that tip is bugged :)
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15:48 < plexdev> http://is.gd/NH9f83 by [Adam Langley] in
go/src/pkg/crypto/openpgp/packet/ -- crypto/openpgp/packet: comment typo fix.
15:51 < KBme> oh!  openpgp!
15:51 < KBme> sweet!
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16:03 < skelterjohn> morning
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16:08 < jnwhiteh> morning
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16:35 < n___> Is wrapping C libraries in Go "encouraged", or is it preferred
to have native versions?
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16:36 < aiju> we'll be happy if you write a native Go version, but a
cat^Wwrapper is fine, too
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16:38 < n___> Just wondering, I've wrapped net-snmp, but writing a
fully-pledged SNMP Lib from scratch is lots of work
16:38 < aiju> there are no concentration camps for people using wrapped
libraries
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16:41 < n___> haha yea i know, just asking to see what was the trend
16:41 < KBme> ☺
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16:54 < exch> If it's simple enough, a pure go version is probably
preferable.  But porting something like libvlc or other large and complicated
things is probably not a very viable solution.  best to just wrap the existing lib
up
16:54 < exch> You're free to try though :p
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16:55 < n___> too much duplicated work if you do that
16:56 < n___> must be hard for the garbage collector tho :p
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17:44 < n___> How do you handle union types in cgo?
17:45 < exch> the last time I had to deal with one, cgo converted it into a
fixed size byte array.  You havge to use the encoding/binary package, or manual
bit fiddling to extract the appropriate data
17:45 < n___> go it
17:45 < n___> i'll most likely handle it in C, and hand Go the actual value
17:45 < n___> less hacky this way i guess
17:45 < wrtp> n___: that's a better way
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20:54 < kimelto> argh!  I hate it when I need threads in C but I know that
my pool of threads will be starving most of the time.
20:55 < kimelto> yeah, I know...  but I really need to do it in C.
20:56 < Urmel|> yup that answers what I was gonna say
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21:51 < spreadsheet> Hi
21:51 < fzzbt> hi there
21:52 < spreadsheet> I understand that go is trying to replace system
languages such as C++ right?
21:52 < aiju> yeah
21:52 < aiju> whatever a "system language" is supposed to be *cough*
21:52 < spreadsheet> What about C?
21:52 < aiju> to some extent
21:52 < spreadsheet> Does it aim to replace C entirely or in some fields?
21:52 < aiju> in most fields
21:52 < fzzbt> C is too good to be replaced.
21:52 < spreadsheet> Because I think that pointer arithmetic would be
necessary to make on OS, no?
21:53 < aiju> spreadsheet: Go is not 100% suitable for writing a kernel
21:53 < aiju> spreadsheet: but large parts of a kernel could be written in
it
21:53 < spreadsheet> I think that C is eternal
21:53 < spreadsheet> :P
21:53 < aiju> also, there *is* pointer arithmetic
21:53 < exch> afaik, the Go guys have a somewhat different definition of
'systems programming'
21:53 < exch> they refer to servers, databases, etc
21:53 < aiju> everyone has a somewhat different definition of "systems
programming"
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21:55 < aiju> spreadsheet: i did some OS developing in Go, the main problems
are (1) classical low-level / high performance operations (which anyone does in
assembly)
21:55 < skelterjohn> i'm not sure how the lack of pointer arithmetic
precludes anything
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21:55 < aiju> (2) memory allocations in "harmless" operations like slicing
21:56 < aiju> Go is rather unsuitable for interrupt handlers, but stuff like
the IDE driver could easily be written in Go
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21:58 < skelterjohn> aiju: regarding (2), what allocation happens?
21:58 < aiju> allocation of memory?
21:59 < skelterjohn> i mean, in C when you say array2 = array1+20
21:59 < skelterjohn> you still have to allocate array2 (presumably on the
stack)
21:59 < skelterjohn> is the slice data structure not the same?
22:00 < aiju> it might be related to Go being reluctant to take addresses of
stack data
22:00 < aiju> i didn't investigate it further
22:00 < skelterjohn> so, a slice got sent to the heap
22:01 < skelterjohn> different issue than slicing
22:01 < aiju> skelterjohn: w/e
22:01 < skelterjohn> uh, not trying to be contrary
22:02 < skelterjohn> but the heap issue goes to another main issue - can you
have an efficient OS whose data structures are garbage collected?
22:02 < aiju> sorry, i fought with hardware today
22:03 < aiju> skelterjohn: that's another question
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22:04 < skelterjohn> i wonder if go will eventually allow by-hand memory
management
22:05 < |Craig|> it does, store your data by value in an array, and keep
track of whats in use
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22:05 < skelterjohn> yes, sounds like a good idea to base an OS on
22:06 < aiju> hahaha
22:06 < |Craig|> slices work that way with append
22:06 < aiju> how does append work?
22:07 < skelterjohn> he's referring to the larger array that often backs a
slice
22:07 < skelterjohn> append just fills it in, if that data exists
22:07 < |Craig|> when the slice isn't full, it represents the part of the
array that is considered in use, its explicit memory magement
22:07 < aiju> yeah, i know
22:08 < |Craig|> append makes a copy of the array, but longer when it gets
full, but thats irrelevent to my point
22:08 < aiju> x = append(a, b) ; y = append(a, c)
22:08 < aiju> i wonder what that would do
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22:08 < |Craig|> aiju: it depends on if a overflowed or now
22:08 < |Craig|> *not
22:09 < aiju> i'd imagine either x or y to be invalid
22:09 < |Craig|> if it does, x and y end up backed by diffferent arrays with
copies of a's origional data
22:10 < |Craig|> both are valid, but may not be whats expected
22:10 < aiju> that's what i mean
22:10 < aiju> foo = append(bar, ...) seems worth avoiding
22:10 < skelterjohn> i stick to bar = append(bar,...)
22:11 < |Craig|> of worse, bar := append(bar,...) // shadow append!
22:12 < |Craig|> I think using append to make a variable shadowing the
original slice might be one of the worst things you can subtly do in go without
using any concurrency.
22:12 < skelterjohn> still don't know why you're allowed to shadow
22:13 < |Craig|> its useful if you have lots of nested closures and such.
You can much such code around without it breaking if you allow shadowing.  I'm not
sure if its worth the price though
22:14 < aiju> it's most annoying with multiple variables
22:15 < aiju> i usually end up declaring them all manually
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22:40 < n___> hm, regarding on the OS discussion earlier, it strange to see
what people believe is needed for writing an OS
22:40 < n___> microsoft guys have done it in C#
22:41 < n___> garbage collected, entirely safe, single-address space (share
by communicating, similar to Go)
22:41 < aiju> n___: hahaha
22:41 < aiju> well, what does that run on?
22:41 < aiju> a magical .NET machine?
22:41 < n___> nope
22:41 < n___> bare hardware
22:41 < aiju> yeah
22:41 < aiju> x86 can't execute CLI code directly
22:41 < n___> they made a special compiler
22:41 < n___> http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/singularity/
22:41 < aiju> oic
22:42 < emet> hey so Go has built in channels?
22:42 < aiju> emet: haha yes
22:42 < emet> I need to play around with go lol
22:43 < n___> once you abstract the really low-level stuff, i see no reason
why not write an OS in Go
22:43 < emet> it seems very suitable for server applications
22:43 < emet> am I off on this?
22:43 < Namegduf> Nope.
22:43 < Namegduf> Go is good for lots of things, but it especially pretty fr
servers
22:43 < Namegduf> *for
22:44 < emet> does it's channel implementation have publish-subscribe
pattern built in?
22:44 < emet> like I send this data down a channel, can it hit multiple
subscribers?
22:45 < jnwhiteh> no
22:45 < jnwhiteh> but you can implement that
22:45 < emet> so it's just a queue?
22:45 < n___> the concept is similar to a queue
22:45 < emet> jnwhiteh: that's what I am considering implementing then :)
22:45 < n___> but its more powerful; its build-in the language
22:46 < jnwhiteh> emet: that's easy enough to go, because channels are
simple =)
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22:46 < jnwhiteh> and indeed powerful
22:47 < n___> there are some pretty nifty tricks with channels
22:47 < emet> yeah there is a pretty good book on the topic I am reading
22:47 < aiju> it's not just a queue
22:47 < aiju> it can also be synchronized
22:47 < emet> http://www.enterpriseintegrationpatterns.com/
22:47 < aiju> haha
22:47 < emet> it talks a lot about different patterns involving channels
22:47 < jnwhiteh> much, much more than a queue.  It's actually not a queue
by default..  that only happens when its buffered
22:48 < emet> cool
22:48 < jnwhiteh> so its a queue of n-1 slots where reads and writes are
synchronous when the queue is full =)
22:49 < jnwhiteh> for what you want, the fact that channels are also
capabilities can be exploited..  you could have a method that 'registers' a new
subscriber to a provider and it can give you a channel that you can then use to
receive the results.
22:50 < emet> yeah
22:50 < emet> kind of listens on a channel and multiplexes it
22:50 < jnwhiteh> aye, lots of fun designs you can come up with, depending
on what you need/want
22:50 < aiju> you can even generate random numbers with channels!
22:51 < jnwhiteh> you can guarantee lots of things in a concurrent world
when you use channels =)
22:55 < n___> with cgo, you have to manually free everything you convert
into C.CString()?
22:56 < n___> or that is taken care of?
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23:07 < exch> n___: you have to free it manually
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23:07 < n___> agr
23:07 < n___> PIA
23:07 < aiju> pia?
23:08 < n___> Pain In Ass :p
23:08 < plexdev> http://is.gd/Otf4Rz by [Rob Pike] in go/doc/ -- spec:
delete incorrect obsolete mention of selector working on
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23:24 < n___> C.GoStrings() are fine tho, right?
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23:30 < exch> go strings are subject to the GC. The C string you created it
from is still in C space though.  Depending on where you got it from, it may still
require cleaning manually unless thw C code does that for you
23:36 < Namegduf> C stuff needs managing manually C
23:36 < Namegduf> *C's side, GO's stuff is GCed.
23:37 < n___> well i assume anything i hand to the lib's function is handled
by that
23:43 < n___> How do i get a package listed @ packages section in the
website?
23:45 < aiju> you mean golang.org/pkg?
23:45 < aiju> those are part of the distribution
23:45 < n___> no
23:45 < n___> http://godashboard.appspot.com/package
23:45 < n___> here
23:46 < aiju> i think you use goinstall or similar
23:46 < n___> just goinstall the lib, and then it magically appears there?
23:46 < aiju> idk
23:47 < exch> goinstall auto-submits it to the dashboard
23:47 < aiju> oh so it's the other way around :P
23:49 < aiju> http://golang.org/cmd/goinstall/
23:49 < n___> ah right
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23:50 < aiju> you just specify the repository on the command line, if i get
it right
23:51 < n___> gonna put online the snmp library (wrapper of net-snmp)
23:52 < aiju> btw is the S in SNMP ironic?
23:52 < n___> HAHA
23:52 < n___> Indeed it is
23:53 < n___> the concept is simple, you ask for an index's value, and you
get the response
23:53 < n___> but because the protocol is so simple, it very complicated if
you want to build something more complex on top of that
23:54 < aiju> there are over 9000 RFCs about it
23:54 < Xenith> Hah.  I didn't know goinstall automatically added the pkg to
the dashboard.
23:55 < Xenith> There's my forked personal copy of golua.  Heh.
23:55 < aiju> Xenith: software which doesn't submit possibly personal data
to some central server violates the Google software design guidelines
23:55 < n___> its stupid sometimes, but it is definately useful if you're
writing network code
23:55 < Xenith> :)
23:56 < exch> i'm quite suprised nobody has yet abused the dashboard
submissions.  It's a simple, unencrypted/unauthenticated POST request
23:56 < aiju> hahaha
23:56 < mpl> exch: as in, spam?
23:56 < exch> yea
23:56 < mpl> or defacing.
23:56 < mpl> k
23:57 < exch> or massively upvoting scores for a package
23:57 < exch> or indeed submitting bogus package names
23:57 * mpl starts writing a package named goviagra
23:58 < exch> :P
23:58 < exch> it's asking for one really
23:58 < Xenith> Speaking of packages, has anyone used golua or
gomongo/go-mongo?
23:58 < aiju> go_FREE_VIAGRA_AT_VIAGRA_COM____GO_FOR_IT
--- Log closed Sun Feb 20 00:00:29 2011